Kimberly Derting & Shelli Johannes, CECE LOVES SCIENCE

Zibby Owens: Thanks so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." I'm here with the authors of Cece Loves Science and Libby Loves Science, Kimberly Derting and Shelli Johannes. Welcome. Welcome to my show.

Shelli Johannes: Thank you for having us.

Zibby: You were so nice to have sent me these. My kids lined all these up on the table yesterday, all the little cards of the different characters. We had this whole game with all of them. Thanks for sending these too. Of course, we've been reading Cece Loves Science since it came out. As I mentioned to one of you -- sorry, I'm rambling here -- I literally had just seen this in the bookstore and was so excited and had read it with my son. When you reached out, I was like, this is perfect.

Shelli: That was so weird. It was just crazy.

Zibby: Tell me how the two of you came to collaborate in the first place and how you came up with the idea for the series.

Shelli: You want to go, Kim?

Kimberly Derting: Shelli and I have been critique partners for twelve years. We actually met online, of all places, back when blogging was still a big thing. We both started in young adult novels. SCBWI held a summer conference every year in LA. We were communicating via blog back and forth. One of us would post a blog. The other one would comment, back and forth like that. I think I had said I was going to go to the SCBWI summer conference. All of a sudden, I get an email from Shelli saying, "Hey, I have this really great idea. How would you feel about rooming together at this conference?" We had not met.

Shelli: That's not creepy or anything.

Kimberly: We had never met in person before. I go, "Sure." My husband says, "That's how Dateline starts." [laughter] We had kind of formed this friendship online. We met in LA and instantly formed a connection. We really liked each other. From there, we started critiquing each other's young adult novels for years. We had become instant friends. We'd talk every day on the phone, just fast friends. Fast-forward, Shelli had this idea. She says, "I have this idea. My daughter --" Tell the story, Shelli, about your daughter.

Shelli: My daughter was nine at the time and loves science. We were writing YA, so we had never written picture books at all. I went to my daughter and was like, "Are you ready for science camp this year?" She's like, "Well, I don't know if I'm ready for science camp. Science is kind of for boys." I was like, "What?" She said, "Yeah. Every club I go into, every camp I go into, it's always boys." My husband has a PhD in topography. I love science. I volunteer at the zoo. We do a lot of conservation stuff. I couldn't figure out how she got that message. It kind of scared me that someone could get a message like that outside of the house that we had not given. It was such a strong message that she was deciding not to go to camp because of that message. It scared me that someone could have that kind of voice in my child's head. I immediately got this -- this little girl came in my head and was super sassy and was like, science is not for boys. Science is fun. Science is cool. I just thought maybe I could write a Fancy Nancy for science, was kind of the initial thought.

I called Kim and told her the story and just how bothered I was. She was like, "You know, that's so weird because Abby said that too. She loves science, and she kind of got out of it during school." I said, "I'm going to write it. I'll send it to you." When Kim and I critique, we write back and forth and obviously just do little notes and overviews. For some reason, this time, I would send it to her and it would come back completely edited. I was like, "Aren't you just taking some liberty?" We were kind of kidding back and forth. I couldn't find the voice. Kim's really, really good at voice. I was like, "This is a really weird idea, maybe not as weird as going to a hotel at a CBWI, but close. Would you want to write a picture book with me?" She goes, "I would love to. I totally love this picture book. I think it's a great idea." That's how it started. We went to our agents. We're like, "We're going to write a picture book." They were like, "But you're YA authors." We're like, "Yeah, yeah, we know, but we're going to write a picture book." They were like, "But you're YA authors. You write thrillers." We're like, "Yeah, but we're going to write a picture book." We just started and studied for a really long time. That was how it got started.

Zibby: Wow. Wait, tell me more about that. What did you study? How did you learn how to do it?

Shelli: At the time, there wasn't that much online. Now Josh Funk has a great blog. We just went through articles and studied picture books and tried to map out picture books and how the arcs were for stories. Kim, do you remember if we -- there were no classes.

Kimberly: We had one friend who had just sold a picture book to Harper Collins. We went to her and said, "What format do you use?" She gave us the layout of how the spreads are. She was really helpful. We had another friend who was agenting, and she went through some picture books with us and showed us some dos and don'ts. We reached out to people we knew who were in the industry and said, "Give us some ideas of what works and what doesn't work." The internet was really helpful, but it was also helpful to make some personal connections with people and see what is working and what isn't working. There's a lot of what doesn't work. There really isn't a right way to do it because there are so many different kinds of books. One of the things we really did wrong is we didn't understand word count at all. Our first book, Cece Loves Science, is probably over the word count anyway, but our first draft was maybe three thousand words, which is humongous in picture book terms. Our agents kept going, "You need to cut. You need to cut." We had so many art notes for the illustrators. Illustrators, they want to have creative license to use their imagination, and they should because they're so good at it. They're so talented. They have so much more imagination than we possibly could ever have. We had so many notes down to what Cece should be wearing in the book. We're not illustrators. We should've cut all of that out.

Shelli: That was Robin Mellom, right?

Kimberly: Yeah. Robin Mellom is the author we had gone to to ask for help.

Shelli: Zibby, both of our agents are at the same agency. When we say our agents, we just mean one --

Kimberly: -- Our agents are friends too.

Shelli: We kind of put them together. What do we call them? [Indiscernible]. We kind of give them their Hollywood name because they both email at the same time. Then Zibby, when we talked over email, the person who ended up taking our book at Harper, Virginia Duncan at Greenwillow, her daughter had said the same thing. I think it was just that moment where our stars align and something clicks or there's some kind of connection that accidentally happens. I think she clicked with that because her daughter was the same age as my daughter at the time. Her daughter had said the exact same thing to her in recent months. She was thinking, this is obviously a problem.

Zibby: Wow, how great to identify a problem and then just go ahead and solve it. This is how we're addressing it, right now, boom, I'm done. Here's my book. It's great. Why wait for someone else when you can fix it yourself? That's fantastic. When my daughter got home from school and we had this stuff waiting, I was like, "What was your special today at school?" Now they're actually in school again, which is a miracle. She's like, "Actually, it was science." Then she held up the book. She's only seven. Maybe by starting with earlier kids it will help. Do you have a lot of people who are going to love science? Is this a whole series with fifty kids? What's your plan with the series?

Shelli: Yes, Virginia, this is a series for fifty kids. [laughter] No, we have six books. We have the ICR coming out in February for Libby, so Libby's I Can Read. The Cece I Can Read is out. Then we have Vivy Loves Science which comes out next summer. There's six books right now in the series.

Kimberly: It's three characters. The third character is Vivy. She is a little marine biologist. She'll be going down to the seashore and exploring marine life and the ocean. Each character has their little specialty. Libby's is chemistry, obviously. What we like to do is include little experiments or things that kids can do at home. It's especially timely now with parents on the frontline with educators, a lot of parents at home trying to keep their kids busy and engaged. It's nice to have those interactive things that they can do at home.

Zibby: Yes. As a mother of four, I will agree with that.

Shelli: We were thinking about starting to go out and do more virtual school visits to actually see if there was a way to see if we could do experiments over Zoom. Could we have them do the ice cream? It's very simple to do that and lead them through that process while we read the book and have it be a little bit more hands-on. I think picture books right now are a great way to supplement and have it be fun at home because it's hard right now. I've got kids at home. It is hard to keep it fun. My kids are older, but they're struggling to stay engaged, I think is the hardest thing.

Zibby: How old are your kids?

Shelli: Mine? Thirteen and sixteen.

Zibby: How about you?

Kimberly: My kids are older. They're out of the house. My youngest is nineteen. She just came back from college when COVID hit. My grandkids are six and three. My daughter is struggling with that. While my six-year-old grandson is online, I bring my three-year-old granddaughter over here. We do preschool. I'm teaching her her letters and numbers just to keep her out of my daughter's hair while -- not to say out of her hair, but to kind of keep her out of the way while she's trying to keep my grandson online on school. They're still in virtual.

Zibby: My goal now is to try to look more like you when I'm a grandmother. I would never think you had grandchildren ever. Wow, that's awesome. Fantastic. Tell me about working with the illustrator. You gave her all these notes. Then did she hate you? What was it like?

Shelli: We took them out.

Zibby: You took them all out, okay.

Shelli: Vashti did not need any art notes. She's amazing. We took them out just so that the illustrator could have creative liberty and just make Cece who she was. We love her. Joelle Murray is the new illustrator for Libby and Vivy. Vashti is so amazing. She got super booked. Virginia really wanted to have the books come out a lot faster. We actually found Joelle on Instagram. She seemed to have a similar style. She's amazing as well. We didn't give any notes. That's what's hard about picture books. There's no book that's just one author. There's all these people that play into it. Illustrators are half of that.

Kimberly: Can I just say, we have been so fortunate in illustration. Picture books take so much longer than a novel to produce because it's pairing -- our editor, she probably took a year to find the right illustrator for Cece Loves Science. She searched far and wide. When she came to us, we had a vision of who Cece was going to be. Like I said, we had a million art notes. We had stripped all those out. It's like handing your baby over to somebody and saying, now make it come to life. Vashti Harrison, if nobody knows who she is, you have to look her up. She is absolutely brilliant. When we got the first sketches, Shelli and I opened them together over Skype. I think both of us started to cry a little because Cece was almost exactly who we pictured. Vashti brought her to life so brilliantly. We just felt so blessed to work with Vashti. Then when Joelle came on board, she complimented the series so beautifully. It was just such a lovely pairing. An illustrator can make or break a book. Kids are so visual, almost more so than adults. Everybody's visual, but kids, children, you say, don't judge a book by a cover, but how do you not? Those characters can bring a story to life. We've just been so fortunate.

Shelli: We were so upset when Vashti couldn't, obviously, because we had built three books together. When Virginia said Vashti can't sign on, we were thinking, oh, my gosh, how are we going to find someone that can step into those shoes? When we started in 2015, Bold Little Leaders hadn’t come out yet. It was so new. She was so new. She grew so fast because Bold Little Leaders was so amazing. We were so nervous. Then when we found Joelle, it was exactly the same. We were just so grateful that she could step in and make it so seamless and colorful. We were really lucky. Starting in the middle of a series is really hard to find someone that can fill or even come close to filling Vashti's shoes. I think Joelle does a great job of that.

Zibby: That's great. Vashti, as you know, was on this podcast to talk about those books. She came to my book fair. Then I had her at a book club recently. She's amazing. It was so sweet when she was here. She drew a little picture of a monkey and my son's name. I don't think he knows how precious that is. I'm like, this is so amazing. You will appreciate this as you get older. I'm such a huge fan of Vashti's. You're right. Even just holding them side by side, you wouldn't even necessarily know. They certainly look complimentary, as you well know.

Shelli: The art direction, obviously, at Harper did a great job of doing that. It definitely was a nervous time to make that transition, but it's worked out really well.

Zibby: Do you already have plans, maybe you have this and I just didn't know, to do Cece Loves Science kits or kits you can buy or subscription boxes or something to bring that science-y experiment into the home even more?

Shelli: We would love that.

Kimberly: That's a great idea. Cece has been included in some subscription book boxes already, Jambo Books I think just for September. I can't remember the other one. I should know this off the top of my head. A science kit would be super fun.

Zibby: You should team up with -- I can introduce you if you want, if I can find the email. There's a company called Kiwi Crate which we subscribe to.

Shelli: I love Kiwi.

Zibby: You should do a Cece Loves Science-branded, at least, kit.

Shelli: Wouldn't that be great?

Zibby: That wouldn't even be hard. You could just include some of this stuff. That could be the craft.

Shelli: That's a great idea.

Zibby: Foodstirs also has a box, I don't know if you follow them, with fantastic baking and cooking crafts for kids. You could do the ice cream maybe in that.

Kimberly: In the Libby Love Science: I Can Read is mix and measure. It's baking. That would be super fun.

Zibby: I know. It's very similar. Anyway, that's your assignment for today. [laughs]

Kimberly: Thank you.

Shelli: [Indiscernible] hours on Skype coming up with assignments for ourselves and talking assignments and talking about the future and where it could go.

Zibby: I feel like this is such a natural thing. Those boxes already exist. I know we rip open our boxes because we're so in need of stuff. Instead of having to scrounge for materials, it's all right there.

Shelli: That's a great idea. I hadn’t even thought about the subscription boxes, going to them ourselves.

Kimberly: The boxes are so fun, though. I'm a subscription box junkie.

Shelli: I am too.

Kimberly: I love the book boxes. I get the FabFitFun box.

Shelli: I love FabFitFun.

Zibby: I don't have that box. Maybe I have to check it out. Is that a fitness one?

Shelli: It's fab, fit, and fun. You get some kind of beauty supply. Then you get some kind of health thing. Then you get some kind of fun thing. It comes four times a year. I get mine and my daughter's like, "Can I look at it with you?" I'm like, "No, this is my box. I have my own box. It's a mom box." Bubble baths and whatever comes for that season.

Zibby: I do Book of the Month. Then I also do -- I know we're totally off topic. I get the LOL box for my kids. It's this huge craze. All they do is unbox and unwrap stuff. It's basically like all we do is clean up packaging. They think it's so fun, so whatever.

Shelli: Whatever works, right?

Zibby: They're like, "Did you order us this present?" I'm like, "I think this is the box I ordered. I don't know." [laughs]

Shelli: Which box is it?

Zibby: Which box is it? I know. I can't even keep track. Anyway, that would, I feel like, be such a natural. I'm sure there's so many other brand extensions. It's just an approachable -- I feel like there are other companies and things trying to get kids, and girls especially, to enjoy science. I feel like this is so important. Your brand is so playful and fun and young and targeted that it would be really easy.

Shelli: I think a lot of kids start to think science is a subject in school. Once kids get to middle school and it becomes like, you're going to science now and then you're going to social studies, you're going to ELA, then somehow the fun of science I think gets lost that they have in elementary school. That's what we always think about. What would be something fun that kids could do at home? Science is everywhere. It's not just a subject in school. How do we keep kids off of that track that it's just a subject that you're supposed to get an A in? It's everywhere. It's outside. When I do some of my talks at schools, at the end I'll have people raise their hand. I'll say, "Who loves science?" They're like -- [laughter]. I'm like, "It's okay. You don't have to love science. Just raise your hand if you love science. Keep your hand down if you don't." Then I'll say, "Who loves baking?" Then people will raise their hand. I'll say, "Who loves being outside in nature?" They're raise their hand. Then I'll just go down the list. There'll always be a few kids that are just like, that's not for me, you haven't listed anything yet. Then of course I say, "Who loves computers?" They're like, "[gasp]." Everyone raises their hand. They start screaming. I'm like, "That's computer science." They're like, "What?" It's so cute. They just don't think of those things as science.

Zibby: I feel like science as a word, we need to rename it or something. I mean, not now because you have the books and everything. [laughter] It has a negative connotation, which it shouldn't. It's not even representative of all the stuff. If you said Cece loves experimenting, everyone would be like, totally, of course she does. She loves potions and magic.

Kimberly: Asking questions. I feel like just the whole idea of keeping kids curious, asking questions, getting out there and exploring is kind of the whole thing. Don't squash their curiosity.

Zibby: That's all kids do. Why? Why? Why? So what's going on in your other writing lives? Are you still doing YA? Have you stopped the other types of writing? How are you integrating this with the rest of your professional lives?

Kimberly: It's interrupted it a little bit, but we're both still writing. We both have projects in the works, nothing announce-able. We definitely are both writing. I think COVID has been the biggest hiccup. If anything, you would think that would give you more writing time, but it's definitely been a creativity damper for me. I'll speak for me personally. I know probably some people found it easier to hunker down at home and find time to write. For me, it's actually been the opposite. I've found that it's kind of taken away my creativity a little bit. Now I'm finding it again. The picture books are actually kind of nice. Shelli and I have other picture books in the works. We found that writing together, this team thing, works really well for us. Shelli has other individual picture books. Our team one, we have another one coming out in 2020. Wait, this is 2020.

Shelli: 2022.

Kimberly: 2022, it sounds forever away.

Shelli: I have a couple. I'm kind of an overachiever. With COVID, for me, it helped me focus because I wasn't going to soccer. I feel bad because my husband built this super cute she-shed for me. It's just amazing. I actually have two picture books coming out next year. I kind of moved away from YA and was just like, I love picture books. Kim and I do the STEM picture books. I've got Thesaurus, which is a dinosaur who loved words. That's coming out with Penguin. You have a book coming out with Penguin, right?

Zibby: Flamingo is the new imprint under Penguin Random House, so it's going to be through that.

Shelli: I love that emblem, the logo. I think it's so cute.

Zibby: Yeah, so cute.

Shelli: Then I have Shine Like a Unicorn which is coming out with Harper that is a how-to book. How do you stand out? How do you be a unicorn in a herd of horses? is kind of the tagline. I went down the picture book a little bit more. I'm working on a YA now. It's nice to get back. I've actually found that since I don't have anywhere to be with my kids, it's given me that space. I'm not driving all the time. I'm not in my car all the time. I'm not sitting at soccer fields, which is sad, but it definitely has given me time to focus.

Zibby: Is it sad, though? [laughter] I don't know. Do I miss sitting there, hockey or baseball and ice skating? I'm pretty happy here at my desk.

Shelli: I just feel like it gives you more space to be creative. Before, I felt like I was trying to squeeze it in. I also do marketing. I'm a copywriter on the side. I do freelance. I feel like I was always trying to squeeze my writing in between writing picture books and writing YA and being with the kids and doing that and being with the husband and cooking dinner. Now everybody's just here. I have no place to go. Instacart's taking care of me.

Kimberly: Except your fancy she-shed.

Shelli: My she-shed gets me away from the house, which is nice to have my own space.

Zibby: I totally agree, by the way. Not having to race around and get people to assorted things has been completely freeing for me.

Shelli: Maybe it's because I have ADHD and I'm scattered. Maybe that is just too much scatter for me.

Zibby: I think it's too much scatter for most of us. It was a lot. Now that we've slowed down, I'm like, oh, what was I doing? How did I even do that? Anyway, what parting advice would you guys have for aspiring picture book writers, or writers at all?

Shelli: I will tell you that I watched your podcast with Greer and Sarah. Kim and I would like to take them on in a battle of the coauthors. I was listening to their podcast. They were like, "No other writer writes like us. We're on Skype all the time. We feel like our relationship's different." I was thinking, no, it's not. We get on Skype every day. We talk every day, all day. In my head, I was a little bit competitive. I was thinking, I think we could take them. Maybe we know more about them than they know about us. That's a challenge.

Zibby: I am going to find a way to pitch that as a TV show, Battle of the Coauthors or Author Battle or something. You guys will be the first contestants.

Shelli: Instead of the newlyweds, it'll be The Authors That Know Each Other the Best. That would be my advice, though. I think when you do do a coauthor, the relationship has to be -- you have to have trust first because you do have conflict. You do come across things that you are not expecting to come across. That is the first thing Kim and I made a pact from the very beginning. You are for me. I am for you. We are a team. No one else matters. We have to be with it first. If you don't like something, I don't want to like it. We both have to love it and move forward. No matter what, it's you and I against the world.

Kimberly: Right, the friendship always comes first with the coauthoring.

Shelli: You have to really trust each other.

Kimberly: It doesn't mean [indiscernible/crosstalk].

Shelli: Oh, yeah, we have our own challenges. I would say that's the biggest. We are on the phone pretty much every day for hours. My daughter came out the other day and started talking. I said, "I'm on the phone." She goes, "Yeah, but is it just Kim?" I said, "We're working." She goes, "It doesn't sound like you're working." I'm like, "We work and we play at the same time." We get a lot of work done. We just have to catch up a little bit. Kim was like, "Just Kim, that's great." [laughter] What do you think, Kim, for advice?

Kimberly: For picture book authors in general, I think the best thing you can do is join a great organization like SCBWI. Get involved with meeting other authors. If you're an illustrator, meet other illustrators. Get involved with the organizations out there in your area. Right now, you can't actually do it in person. They have so many great virtual events. Find out what resources are available. Like I said, Shelli and I had to go out and scour the internet. Meeting, actually talking to other authors who are in the industry was more helpful even than the stuff we found online.

Shelli: I think writing picture books is hard. It is harder, I find, than it is for YA. Not saying that anyone doesn't work as hard as a picture book author, but getting a story and a character in eight hundred words, six hundred words, enough to where people can connect to the character, enough to where you know what's going on, it's hard. We really struggle trying to pare back our words. I think really making sure that your characters have clear arcs. Just because they're picture books, they still have to have a clear arc, clear story, personality, voice. That's hard to do in six hundred words.

Zibby: Agree. Right before you, I interviewed Sophie Blackall, the author/illustrator. She's starting, you should know, a retreat for children's book authors and illustrators, like a Yaddo for children's books, basically. I can't find the little sticky here, but it's called something-farm, Wilford -- Milkwood. Milkwood Farm.

Shelli: It sounds like a picture book.

Zibby: Right? It does. She's Australian. Anyway, check it out. She has a new Instagram for it. It would be really neat to go. I was like, when is this opening? Can I go on a retreat right now? Anyway, thank you, ladies, so much. This was so fun. I'm so thankful for all the little fun cards and books and everything. Your books are just fantastic. Thank you.

Shelli: It made me so happy when you said you'd already gotten Libby Loves Science. I thought, oh, that's great. Libby's been hard because it's been over COVID.

Zibby: It jumped right out to me. It had great placement. I was at a bookstore. It was front and center. Idiotically, I didn't even realize it was related to Cece Loves Science when I got it. I was like, oh, Libby. I was taking this with my son. I was like, "Look, it's kind of like Zibby Loves Science." It's the closest title of a book to my name ever.

Shelli: You know what's funny? When I was signing it to you, I got all nervous. Then I looked down and I had written "To Libby" because I flipped Libby/Zibby. Then I put it aside and had to make another one. I was like, oh, Zibby would be a cute name. I wonder if that would be weird. [laughs]

Zibby: No, that'd be great. I was so excited. Even this is -- I feel like I'm famous, so thank you. [laughs] All right, have a great day, guys.

Kimberly: Thank you so much for having us.

Zibby: Buh-bye.

Shannon Lee, BE WATER, MY FRIEND

Zibby Owens: Welcome, Shannon, to "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Shannon Lee: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Zibby: It's a pleasure to have you. Be Water, My Friend, by the way, this book cover is my favorite colors, image. This is the most soothing, beautiful -- I love it. Don't you just love it?

Shannon: I do. I love it. Soothing is such a great word. Also, the feel of the book is really nice.

Zibby: I don't know how you make things happen like this. Anyway, I won't belabor the point.

Shannon: I don't either.

Zibby: It just feels so good, especially because the inside so matches it. It's so perfect for the content and all of the amazing tips and advice and all the rest. Now that I've started off on this train, it's called Be Water, My Friend: The Teachings of Bruce Lee, who was your father. What made you decide to write this book? Why take all of his learnings? Why make it a book? Why dedicate your life to running a whole foundation and business around him? Tell me the whole story.

Shannon: Give you the whole story.

Zibby: The whole thing.

Shannon: All these things are interconnected. To start at the beginning, the reason that I do what I do is because I am healed by it and because I am inspired by it, because I am motived by it. By it I mean my father's words, his practices, the way he lived his life. All of that has helped me in my life. Even though I run all the different aspects of the business, I'm not in this for the cool T-shirts and posters. Although, they're super cool. For me, when my mom approached me and said, "Do you have an interest in helping to oversee this?" The immediate answer was yes because I just feel like there's so much value for everyone to encounter him and his message. I want him to be known more as the deep thinker and personal growth seeker and philosopher that he truly was. I think you will say after reading the book that he wasn't just an armchair philosopher. He was really invested in these thoughts and these practices and trying to live them. That's why I do all of this in the first place.

Then why I wrote this book, I have a deep love of reading. I have a deep love of writing. I always had this desire to write a book. I just didn't know what book to write. I had been doing the "Bruce Lee Podcast" for a couple of years discussing his philosophy and how to apply it and all of that. It caught the eye of a literary agent who was listening and reached out and said, "Oh, my god, I love this. Have you ever thought about writing a book?" I said, "Actually, yes. I have thought about it." He said, "I feel like putting these teachings in another format, an additional format that can then reach a whole nother swath of people is a really great idea." The "be water" philosophy of my father's is really one of his best known. A lot of people have heard him say the quote. It's made its way into popular culture in that regard. It's such an expansive quote. It encapsulates so much of him and his perspective and his practices. I just thought this is a great entry point and a way to keep it focused. It's such a vast amount of information. To not have a focal point would be really hard. I feel like the book would be all over the place.

Zibby: It was great because you broke it down into all this different advice, but in highly structured formats. Each chapter gave a little different take on different advice. I know these concepts are so timeless and they date back to the beginning of rational thought, but I feel like he was ahead of time for where we are now with a whole society focused on mindfulness and breath. I feel like thirty years ago it wasn't quite so mainstream as it is today.

Shannon: Totally. That's what I would say one of the hallmarks of my father's life is, that he was an innovator. He was ahead of his time. Look, he's taking timeless information, for sure. This goes all the way back to Daoism. It goes all the way back to the beginning of, as you say, conscious thought. He interpreted it and represented it for himself and his place and set and setting, and his place and moment in time. Now many years have gone by. Society continues to change. I feel like I've taken it now and placed it more in this moment in time.

Zibby: You have, yes. Some of the tips are just so actionable that you could do right away like journaling or getting physical or owning your own stuff in your head. Stop judging people so much. It's all great advice. It's all things you want to work towards.

Shannon: It's all things that you, in some regard, already know or already have a sense of. Sometimes you just need to have it laid out in a particular way for you so that it really grabs you and speaks to you directly. Then you go, oh, you know what, actually, I'm going to try that or I'm going to do that.

Zibby: One of the best ways to really, not convince people, but to get your message across is through storytelling. I feel like that's what you did well, especially by starting the book off and talking about the history. Even though you were only three or four when your dad passed away --

Shannon: -- Four.

Zibby: Four. The legacy he left and your reaction to it and all of that because then you're immediately invested in the person telling the story, giving the tips.

Shannon: Thank you.

Zibby: How did your dad end up becoming a movie star? He was this cerebral, mindful -- then his life took off in a whole different direction, martial arts and everything.

Shannon: It's so interesting. My father was a child actor, actually. He was in about twenty films as a child in Hong Kong, so a very different time and place, a very different industry than Hollywood. He was already, from birth -- the first cameo that he ever had in a film, he was an infant in the arms of his father. Then it just called to him. Creative outlets really called to him. As I say in the book, his nickname as a child was Mo Si Ting, which means never sit still. He had a ton of energy. As a child in Hong Kong, he grew up under challenging circumstances. Even though he was born in the United States, he went back to Hong Kong as an infant, was raised in Hong Kong, lived through Japanese-occupied Hong Kong in World War II, then lived under British rule of Hong Kong. He himself was of mixed-race descent. He started to get bullied a lot, and so he wanted to take martial arts. The gangs were very prevalent in Hong Kong. There was always a tug on kids to get into gangs. He was certainly no exception. As a kid, he had quite a temper, quite honestly. He was feisty. He wanted to get in fights. He wanted to do that kind of thing. At the same time, he had this creative side. He was an actor. He was a cha-cha dancer. [laughs]

He was interested in the teachings of his shifu, his teacher, in Wing Chun which he started training in at the age of thirteen. There were a lot of Daoist principles passed onto him at that time. He had this really active, interested, curious mind. He had a drive to understand things and to pursue things. All of that came very naturally to him, but he was getting in a ton of trouble. He was getting in fights. Someone was injured quite seriously. He was ultimately shipped off to the United States with a hundred dollars in his pocket by his parents who were like, "You got to get out of Hong Kong. You should go to the United States because technically you're a citizen. You should go there. We know some people. We'll put you in touch. Good luck." Then when he landed in the United States, he very much was like, well, I'm a martial artist, I love martial arts, I guess I need to get my GED. He worked as a busboy and a prep cook in a Chinese restaurant. He enrolled in University of Washington. He started really delving into philosophy. Then he was just training and started teaching some people very casually in the US with no desire to be a movie star, no desire to do any of that. It was through these passionate pursuits of his and his desire to pursue everything with a certain amount of quality and a certain amount of thoughtfulness, and he had an extremely diligent work ethic, that he caught the eye of a Hollywood producer. Then all of a sudden, his whole life took a turn.

Zibby: It's so crazy.

Shannon: Quite interestingly, as I talk about in the book, he suddenly realized, this is an avenue, actually, for me to reach even more people with the same thing I want to reach them with right now but in a bigger format and in a bigger way.

Zibby: In the book, you talked about how when you were younger, you weren’t always so quick to say, guess what, Bruce Lee's my dad.

Shannon: Oh, no. [laughs]

Zibby: Now it's your whole life. You're owning it to the fullest. Tell me about what happened in between or how you used to feel.

Shannon: It's hard. When you say now you're owning it, I'm like, am I owning it? I guess I am. [laughs]

Zibby: Do you still not feel like that? Oh, my gosh, that's funny.

Shannon: I do, but it's this thing where I have to own it. It is true. It is my life. As you say in the beginning, my mom would tell us when we were kids, "Don't tell people that Bruce Lee is your father. Just let them get to know you without that information. Then at some point, they’ll find out. Then they’ll already either like you or not like you. You'll kind of know where you stand and all of that." It was great advice. As I came into adulthood, I started to feel like I was guarding a secret and that there was some part of me that was not okay to share. I proceeded along like that for a long time. Then when I was older, I started to go, why can't I share that? as we do. What's wrong with that? Why can't I? Then I started to experiment with sharing that. Then I realized, oh, this isn't an all-or-nothing thing, just like with everything, by the way. Nothing is an all-or-nothing proposition. You actually have to show up to each moment with all your sensors on, your intuition in play, feeling into the other people, feeling into the situation to say, is this an instance where it's safe to share this information? Or I feel empowered to share this information or not.

I've experimented with it my whole life. I would say that it got even harder when I decided to start looking after his legacy because now this is also what I do for work. All those conversations, "So what do you do for work?" Well... [laughs] I'm not instantly recognizable as a person out in the world. I've questioned my own identity my whole life, which I think, quite frankly, we all do anyway. It's just I have a little bit different lens on mine. That's what I mean. I do feel like I am finally coming into ownership of myself. Bruce Lee as my father is definitely a part of who I am. Yet it's not all that I am. I think that writing this book was a way for me to say even though I'm going to focus on what his teachings have in them that are so great for everyone and for me, I'm also going to put some of myself out there. I'm going to write this book. There have been a lot of books written about Bruce Lee and about his writings, but never by me. It is a way for me to start stepping more and more into my own identity.

Zibby: I wonder how you're going to feel with this book out in the world. I hope it goes okay for you. I hope you're ready.

Shannon: Thank you. [laughs] I hope so too. I guess we'll find out.

Zibby: That's such a natural thing to do when you're younger. I know yours was inspired by your mom. I feel like there was a point at which everyone's a little embarrassed by their parents. Then you grow up and you're like, wait, there's actually some cool stuff about my parents, or there's not.

Shannon: And at different times, I have to abandon my parents. Then at other times you're like, no, I need to own my parents. It's your strive for your individuation. You strive to be different. You strive to learn from the mistakes that you feel like have been made. Then ultimately, you come into this understanding of everybody's just trying to do their best. Nobody knows the secret formula here. Then you're like, so I have to try to do my best also.

Zibby: Totally. Sometimes my dad can be pretty vocal politically or make statements. People might assume that I have the same ones. Then I'm like, why? Do most people share the same views as their parents these days? Maybe, but maybe not. We all have so many differences from who our parents are, I think. Sorry, there's sirens here.

Shannon: Welcome to modern times. [laughs]

Zibby: I know. There's this lingering thing. You're Bruce Lee's daughter. You must have all the same beliefs. You must feel the same way. You might totally not. That's why it's so great that you could include your thoughts and feelings alongside it and share things that shaped you. I'm so sorry, I didn't know about your brother. That part was so sad. That could've been the trajectory your life takes a different turn because of. I didn't say that very well, but you know what I mean. That part was heart-wrenching. After that, you said -- this is the aftermath. You said, "I knew how to go through each day, but I no longer knew how to live." That is the best quote on grief I've heard in a long time. That's just it. Your world is different.

Shannon: Totally. That's it exactly. When I think back to the aftermath of those times, I was like, oh, my god. I had moved to LA. I started pursuing an acting career of all things. I was on autopilot. I got married in the middle of all that. [laughs] I was just like, this is life. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. Inside, I was just like, help me. I don't feel okay.

Zibby: Can you back up? Do you mind sharing what happened? You were kind of vague about something happened in accident.

Shannon: My brother was killed on the filming of the set The Crow for the film The Crow. They were almost done shooting. They just had a couple weeks left of shooting. My brother was going to finish up. Then he was going to take off to go and get married. His wedding was three weeks away. They were extremely negligent on the set of the film. They let the firearms expert go because they were like, we're almost done. We don't need the firearms expert around more. We don't have to pay for that, great. Then they ran out of certain props. They ran out of these things called dummy bullets. Whenever they need to make a shot of a bullet in a film, they don't use real bullets. They use fake bullets. They look just like bullets, but they don't have gunpowder in them. They had to do a shot where a character was loading a gun, so they needed some dummy bullets. They didn't have any, so they bought real bullets.

Zibby: No.

Shannon: Yeah. They bought real bullets. In an attempt to be safe, they pried them open and dumped the gunpowder out, but there was still gunpowder residue in the chambers of these bullets. It's a crazy sequence of events that took place, any of one of which, if somebody had been paying attention and doing their job, would have stopped it. They had these real bullets that they'd dumped the gunpowder out of. Then they did the shots they were doing. In that, somebody was dry firing the gun. Because there was a little residue of gunpowder -- this is things that I never thought I would know about bullets, by the way. A bullet has a flat side with a little circle in it. That's the firing pin. When the hammer of the gun comes up, it hits that firing pin which ignites the gunpowder inside which is what projects the bullet out of the gun. When they dumped the gunpowder out, they didn't also fire off the pins. When somebody was playing around with the gun and firing it, they hit the pin which ignited the residue of the gunpowder inside the bullet which separated the casing and lodged it in the barrel of the gun. Now, we have no firearms expert on set. They go to shoot a scene with my brother a week later or something. Because no one is looking at the gun, no one's checking the gun, they don't know that this piece of metal is lodged in the barrel. Then they put a blank in a gun. A blank is gunpowder, but it just is encased in paper. It's not encased in metal. They stick this blank in the gun which, in essence, makes a bullet because there is a metal projectile lodged in the barrel. Nobody checks it. They shoot the scene. The actor pulls the triggers and shoots my brother.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh.

Shannon: It's pretty horrifying.

Zibby: Actually, as you're telling this, now I'm starting to remember this happening in popular culture. This is twenty years ago or something, right?

Shannon: It's twenty-seven years ago now.

Zibby: I hadn’t put two and two together until you mentioned the movie name. Oh, my gosh, I am so sorry. I know how you came back because I read the book, but how did you go through? You got married. Your life was sort of on autopilot. Then what?

Shannon: Like I said, I was going through life, but I was in excruciating internal pain. I was in full depression. At times, I couldn't leave my house. I would drive around in my car, which in LA we do a lot. I would cry while I was driving. Then I'd get to a place. I'd wipe the tears away and be like, okay, here I go. Just terrible. I remember thinking in my head, I need help. I can't live like this. I had this consistent mantra just going through my head, going through my head. What showed up without me actually -- I was too depressed to even try to pursue something logically to do like go to therapy. [laughs] I had never been in therapy before. I've been in therapy now, by the way. Like many people who have never been in therapy, there's a little bit of a stigma of, you should just be able to handle your own problems and all that kind of stuff and not really understanding the process and the value of it. I was in this place of pain. What came to me was my father's writings, completely delivered to me from the universe, quite frankly. Yes, they were always there, but at the time, my mom was working with someone to organize them into a book. They had gathered them all and made photocopies of them. Just as a, "Hey, this is interesting. Would you like to see? We happened to have them all photocopied, so would you like to see them?" they were given to me, a stack like three phonebooks high of writings.

I started flipping through them. I came across this quote which I mention in the book. For whatever reason in that moment, it was just what I needed to hear. It said, "The medicine for my suffering, I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, but I didn't observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel." I was like, I have the medicine for my own -- my suffering isn't just going to magically disappear. I think that that's what we all want. We just want to be like, something good will happen in my life and I'll get so happy that all my suffering will disappear. It was like, no, actually, you have to be your own fuel. You have to figure it out. That's when I started trying to figure it out and sought the things like healers and therapists and friends and books to read and all these things. This book that I wrote is my way of hopefully there being some little tiny something that pops out at the reader who is also struggling with something and they go, oh. That was my experience.

Zibby: That's just beautiful. I'm sorry you went through all this. I'm so glad that you found the ticket to getting to the next level of processing your grief. People always say, go get help, go get help, but as you mentioned, if you're in that state, it's hard to motivate to do anything. It can feel really overwhelming. What are you going to do, google ineedatherapist.com? It's just overwhelming sometimes. Where do you turn? Who's good? Who's going to click with you? Who takes insurance? There's all these things that prevent people. It's so much easier to do nothing and just wallow.

Shannon: And just hope.

Zibby: And just hope and wait for time to pass. Eventually, things change over time. You're so right. How great that your own dad's words are the ones that got you through. It's amazing, really. Most people's dads don't have writing like this just sitting around.

Shannon: They could use my dad's. There you go.

Zibby: They could use your dad's. That's amazing.

Shannon: I would say books are a place to go. They're easy. They're cheap. You can listen to a book. You don't have to take the time to read a book. Podcasts like we're having a discussion right now, all these things, they're an easy onramp into maybe at some point feeling like you're ready to get a therapist or whatever the next thing is.

Zibby: I totally agree. I've had some recent losses due to COVID, my husband's mother and grandmother within six weeks of each other. It was this excruciating six-week medical journey. I won't go into it. I keep posting and saying books are getting me through this. Books are it. Not books, the idea of the books, but getting lost in somebody else's story and knowing that other people have suffered and that you're going to get through it eventually in some way. It can be a horrible accident, something. It doesn't have to be loss. It's just that hitting bottom. I totally agree with you. People who don't read books, read books. [laughter] It's cheaper than therapy.

Shannon: Or listen to books. How about that?

Zibby: Listen to books, yeah. We listened to a book this morning on our long drive. Going back for two seconds to the writing of this book, what was that process like for you? Did it become very emotional? Did it take you a long time? What was that process like?

Shannon: I wrote the first draft of the book over the course of a year. I'm busy, so I had to fit that time into my schedule, which is why it took a year. I think I probably could've done it faster if I'd had nothing to do but that. I had lots of other things to do.

Zibby: You don't know. People who have nothing but time also struggle. There's no good way.

Shannon: [laughs] This is true. There were a lot of things going on at the time as well. The writing of the book was a journey. I have to say, I approached the first draft as, I just have to get this out. I just have to get it out. I just have to create deadlines. I just have to find a time to write. I would work from home two days a week and try to take hours out of those days to write, and on weekends and things like that. By the way, I'm a single mom, so I also had those duties as well. Catch-as-catch-can, I got a draft out. I felt good about the draft. Then I sent it off to my publisher, editor, and waited a while for their comments. With the timing and everything, and they had some things -- they were moving offices and all that. It took them a few months to get back to me. It was good. I was like, good, I got a draft out of it. I was feeling good about it. Then the notes came back. They were like, "This is great. Here are our comments." In that time -- look, as humans, especially for me -- I'm a person who's dedicated to continue to work on myself, to continue to grow, to continue to shift my perspective over time on all sorts of things and life and all of that.

I was so grateful for those months because I continued to learn and grow in those months and go through a lot of things that I was struggling with and learning from. Then I got the notes back. When I started to read the notes and they were like, "We're not sure we understand this. We could use a little more explanation here," I was reading it, I'm like, oh, my god, yes. This needs some work, for sure. [laughs] I was so grateful because I felt so much more clear. I'd had that space. I'd had some time to continue on my journey. In the edits, I feel like the book really bloomed. I was so grateful for the ability to revisit those thoughts and those chapters and reorganize them. Chapters seven, eight, and nine really got a lot of work done to them, which are the weightier material in the book. I was grateful for that. By the time I was finally like, okay, this is the last time I'm going to get to ever change anything in it, I felt at peace with it. This is my understanding of this material as best as I can get it for right now for where I am. I believe there are some good-enough pieces in here that it can be of help to some other people.

Zibby: What advice would you have for aspiring authors?

Shannon: We all face this idea, whether you're an author or whether you're anything, of there's not enough time, with procrastination. I'm a huge procrastinator. If I don't have a deadline, it's really hard for me to get something done. Sometimes when I would sit down in front of the computer to write, I would find myself typing three sentences and then being like, I'm going to get a snack. I'd come back and type three more sentences and be like, you know what, I have to go to the bathroom. I would watch myself squirm. Then there were times when it just flowed. What I would say is it's great to fight through those moments when you're squirming because they do ultimate lead to times when it starts to flow. For me, deadlines are key. Trying to have, these are the days that I write. It's on my calendar. I'm protecting this time. I'm protecting this practice. Yes, a big meeting is coming up. They're requesting this time from me. Okay, fine, I'll take the meeting, but then I'm going to schedule this time and protect it. You've got to protect the time. There really is enough time. There's so many things that I am trying to do. I'm running these businesses. I'm parenting my child, all of this. It would be easy for me to say that there's not enough time. A lot of times, I use the excuse, I'm very busy. If this is something that is important to you, then there is enough time. You'll find the time. It doesn't matter if it's an hour once a week. Find the time. Protect that time. Just keep going. I use this example in the book. If you just keep dreaming about writing a book and never actually take any steps toward writing it -- even if it takes you ten years, in ten years you'll have a book, versus in ten years you'll still just have a dream about having a book.

Zibby: Such great advice.

Shannon: The other thing, too, is I would get off of the need for the book to be perfect or the need for the book to be immediately publishable. Just get the book out. Then you can always work on it from there. Until you get that draft out, that first idea, rough idea, then there's nothing to work with, and work with it you will. We all had the dream. My first draft, I was like, check, done. [laughter] Perfect book in the first draft. Then it was like, no, no. It's not perfect. It needs work. Great, let's do the work.

Zibby: Shannon, it was so nice talking to you and learning more about your story and your beautiful mission for why you even want the book out there. From where I sit, I feel like you're doing an amazing job of upholding the legacy of your entire family. I give you a check for that.

Shannon: Thank you so much. Thank you for your beautiful questions, for the work that you're doing as well. I hold so much love for you and your process and what you're going through with those losses and just as a human. Being a human, it's challenging. I don't want to put the thing on it that it's hard because it's not always. There's a lot of joy. It's challenging. It's challenging to be with ourselves. When we're in quarantine, we are with ourselves. That is challenging.

Zibby: That's nice. [laughter] I hope I get to meet you at some point.

Shannon: Me too. I would love that. Please, let's keep in touch.

Zibby: Excellent. Bye-bye. Have a great day.

Shannon: You take care. Buh-bye.

Anne Helen Petersen, CAN'T EVEN

Zibby Owens: Thanks for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Anne Helen Petersen: Of course. Oh, my gosh, look at your beautiful library.

Zibby: Thank you. Pride and joy. [laughs]

Anne: It's great that you can have it as your background on your Zoom call so that more people can see it.

Zibby: It's true. I know. The rest of this pandemic, I've been out on Long Island. I ordered a bookcase because I had nothing to showcase books at all. This is my whole built-in library. I was like, what a waste, all those months. Anyway, congratulations on Can't Even. So exciting. I saw you were all dolled up on Instagram, which is always nice to be able to -- [laughs].

Anne: It was honestly the first time that I've done the full deal since May when I had to do a video appearance for an Adobe conference or something. I didn't recognize myself. I was like, what is happening? I actually think I should do it for no reason a little bit more often because it reminds me of a different face that I have. [laughter]

Zibby: Tell listeners, please, what Can't Even is about and how it was based off of an article. What made you want to write it? I know it flowed out of you. I know you talked about it in the book. It just came out of your fingers. Tell us a little more about how it all got started.

Anne: I was really, really burnt out. This was the fall of 2018 leading up to and then after the midterm election. I think I had been burnt out for a really long time. It's just that I refused to recognize what I was feeling as being burnt out. I was like, this is just how I work. I had reached a point where I was getting mad at my editors and crying. One of my editors was like, "You're burnt out. You need to take some time." I was like, "No." [laughs] I had taken two days, Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving. Of course I didn't need any more time. The thing that I thought was wrong with me is that I couldn't figure out how to do my errands, just the pettily stuff at the bottom of your to-do list. I just couldn't do it. I was like, I'll research that. I'll figure out what's going on with that. As I researched it, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm totally burnt out. All roads led to burnout.

Zibby: By the way, the things that you mention in the book on your to-do list that you weren’t getting to, they don't even make it onto my list. The things you were beating yourself up about, I'm like, resoling my shoes? What? No. [laughs] It's not even in the realm of possibilities. The fact that you even had it on a list I think was a step up.

Anne: I love these boots. I want to wear these boots for the rest of my life. They need to get resoled. Otherwise, the cobbler gives you dirty looks when you bring them in. I don't want the scorn of the cobbler. All signs pointed to burnout. Still, the diagnosis of burnout as it was clinically described did not match what I was feeling exactly. Clinically, they usually describe it as collapse. I wasn't collapsing. I was still going. I wanted to try to figure out how to maybe expand that definition to describe a more societal instead of just clinical diagnosis. I try to look at my own life and where I had learned to work all the time and really internalized that ethos and then extrapolated a little bit more onto the rest of my generation. It was a personal essay that was long. I thought that it would function like a lot of personal essays, a couple ten thousand people would read it. That was not the case. Seven million people read it. When I thought of the idea that I expand it into a book, it was really straightforward to expand it both in terms of historical rooting to look what happened in the economy and in changes in childrearing patterns and all that sort of thing in the post-war period that affected our parents and burnt out boomer parents, and then also expand it way past myself and try to decenter that white, middle-class experience that I had.

Zibby: You talked in the book about a lot of your own, as you mentioned, personal stuff. It started as a personal essay. Then you sprinkled in just a lot of experiences of your own like your parents' divorce. Tell me about how that exemplified this burnout, how systemic things in the environment and culture led to burnout culture now.

Anne: I read this really interesting book by Katherine Newman. It was published in, I think, the early nineties. It was about all of these different ways that boomer families oftentimes tried to compensate for ways that they were falling out of the middle class. So many boomer families, they had grown up in homes that had become middle class for the first time in the post-war period. Then just as boomers were entering the workplace in the 1970s, that economic stability started to disintegrate through a series of rolling recessions. You had these families -- she follows this one family, I remember, that had been a Wall Street banker, got laid off, but still lived at that level even though he was laid off because they didn't know how to live any other way but middle class, and went into significant credit card debt. I think that story will be familiar to anyone who's had financial insecurity but cannot fathom not living the way that they're living. I don't mean lavishly, necessarily, but just having the accoutrements of middle-class lifestyles, so a house that you own instead of rent. If you're living in a city, this is different. A house, cars, new clothes and gadgets and stuff for your kids, computers. There are ways that you could be so much more thrifty and really decrease your cost-of-living footprint, but that is unfathomable once you've come to that middle class. It's a real psychological burden to shift classes, to go downward.

To connect this to my parents' divorce, she has this whole chapter that is about what happened to women who got divorced during this period. They have incredible downward mobility because a lot of these boomer women stopped their jobs. This was one of the first generations that went, en masse, into the job market, but then many of them had taken a step back from the job market in order to raise their children and allowed their husbands' careers to take precedence. When they got divorced, whether the kids are in elementary school or in junior high, the income -- the wife doesn't necessarily have a career and can't restart her career where she left it or didn't have one in the first place. The husband still has a career and can just continue going on. They're living in two different houses, but they have to pay rent for two different spaces. The income level of that secondary house -- usually, the kids would either be primarily custody with their mom or splitting custody. The experience of being a kid in one of those households, it just teaches you as a millennial, as a gen Xer, it teaches you a lot of lessons about, this is what happens if you don't have a plan for yourself at all times, if you don't know how to work at all times. At any moment, this marriage could go under and you could find yourself financially afloat. I certainly internalized that idea. I tried to expand on it in the book.

Zibby: I know at the end you say you don't want to give an overwhelming list of tips and that those are kind of useless also. You do such a good job of outlining the hurdles. I feel like you did it with some -- you were sort of pissed off writing this book.

Anne: Oh, yeah.

Zibby: You were, not venting because it was so well-articulated, but it was more just like you're angry at the situation. You feel that there is sort of no way out unless everybody changes everything. That's tough. What do you think can actually help, or are you doomed? [laughs]

Anne: No, I don't think we're doomed. I don't think that every last thing about our lives have to change. We don't have to leave our homes. I just think that there are palliative things that we can do in our own lives to decrease our own personal burnout. You can try to institute better borders between the workspace and the rest of your life. You can have better digital hygiene in terms of, I delete Twitter off my phone on the weekend or whatever. All of those things are Band-Aids, ultimately, if you're fighting against this larger system that is broken. It is always going to be the stronger force. The burnout inherent to that system is going to swallow you no matter what armor you put on to resist it. I think that there are those smaller things that we can each individually do. As a society, I hope that that anger and that frustration is contagious because I think that as millennials we have been taught to, despite our reputation, to kind of put our head down and be like, I guess I just need to work all the time. This is just my life. Instead, we can look at our lives and say, it doesn't have to be this way. How can we together say that loudly and then also decide that we want change, not just incremental change, but societal change?

Zibby: What's something in your dream scenario here, not to put you on the spot, that if society were to change -- I know you reference everything from pensions and social security and parental burnout. I know there's a lot of stuff. What's one thing, maybe, that could happen that could make things better?

Anne: Mandatory paternity leave. We don't even have mandatory maternity leave. The chapter on parenting burnout, I think anyone who reads the book will see just how angry all of these moms are. They're just so tired and so angry. There's a lot of resentment. A lot of it has to do with the fact that you're doing all of these things that society has told you to do to be a good mom. Then you also just feel like in your home, in your heterosexual home, that it is really difficult to find anything close to an equitable labor split even with the most progressive of husbands or the most feminist of husbands. One thing that has been shown in other countries and to some extent in the US to actually sustain equitable splits of labor in the long term is if a father stays home for an extended period of time by himself with kids. What that does is it teaches fathers everything that has to be done in order to take care of children and run a household. That is something on a societal level that we could do to pretty radically reorganize the way that labor is split in the home that could have ramifications across society. Then also, government subsidized and funded affordable childcare would be a huge thing. Every parent I know is stressed out about finding reliable care. This is even pre-COVID. Reliable, affordable care, it's really, really hard. Other countries have shown it's doable. It takes a huge burden off of parents.

Zibby: I'm still trying to digest the idea of mandatory paternity leave. This will sound very antifeminist of me. As a mom of four, I actually wanted to be with my kids. I don't know that I could've been like, all right, honey, I'm taking off two weeks postpartum. I don't know what I'm going to do, but you're --

Anne: -- Not two weeks postpartum. A lot of places that do this, it's maybe from year one to year two, or year one to eighteen months, or eighteen months to two. It doesn't have to be in those early times. It's more just, it teaches -- it's not like the mom, necessarily, would have to go back to work, or if they don't work in a traditional setting or something like that. They can do anything that they want as long as the male is primarily responsible for keeping the child alive.

Zibby: And not call it babysitting. [laughs]

Anne: Exactly. You're not babysitting your own kid.

Zibby: Even in your introduction, it was interesting because you were saying you don't even expect jobs to last. You don't even have the expectations that were for so many of us, assumptions. Now you don't even have them. I feel like I don't know how you would maintain any sort of positive outlook and inner equilibrium if you felt that there was no true hope. I know there are things societally we can do. Aside from you getting up and running for president, which maybe you've thought of --

Anne: -- No, no, no.

Zibby: [laughs] I feel like there's still potential for joy and happiness in the context of societal frustration. I feel like I'm trying to make you feel better because I felt like you were so upset in the book. Now I feel like I'm answering your upset-ness. [laughs]

Anne: I think the problem with burnout is it swallows joy. It swallows all of those moments that -- for me, I knew how to find serendipitous moments of happiness in the corners of my life and that sort of thing. I think that both my exhaustion and then the way that we come to rely on our phones and Instagram as crutches during those moments, it takes your best intentions and cannibalizes them. That is the frustration. I was very careful to always ask all the parents that I interviewed for the book, I was like, "Tell me all these things that you're frustrated about, but also tell me the thing that makes you so happy about parenting." A lot of them were like, "There are all these things that I love about being a parent and I love about my kids. Because of all of these other stresses, all of these other instabilities, it makes it so hard to focus on those things." What I think a burnout cure does is it offers relief from those sources of precarity that rob you of your ability to feel just genuine, simple joy.

Zibby: Speaking of genuine, simple joy, you must have had some of that when you saw that you had seven million views of your article.

Anne: [laughs] It was very gradual. It accumulated over the course of several months. It's a weird thing to go viral on that level. One thing about burnout and about, I think, what a lot of millennials -- our experience is that there's not a lot of space to feel even those ups and downs. The way I try to describe burnout is that everything, the highs and lows, vacations, non-vacations, everything flattens. There's a lot that bears similarity to some symptoms of depression. Also, if you're just trying to get through every day, it's hard to feel catharsis. I think back wistfully all the time about my time in college when you would study so hard for a final and then take the final, and then you'd be like, and I'm done, just that incredible release. You'd always get sick. I would always get sick.

Zibby: I would always get sick, yes.

Anne: Your body is letting down its defenses. Then I would go home. This is a very rarified, privileged experience to be able to go home. I didn't have to work over break. I would just sleep so much and recover. Then it would be long enough of a total break that I would come back to school and be just so excited to be back. You really have that moment of incredibly hard work, achievement and catharsis, recovery, and return. How many of us have anything approximating that in our lives?

Zibby: I will tell you, I got divorced six years ago now or something like that. I split custody. I have more of it. Every other long weekend, I don't have my kids. In my head, I know that I have a point now where I actually can relax and get sick and do all that stuff, which I didn't have for years and years. My oldest kids are thirteen. No, I guess I wasn't divorced six years ago. Anyway, it doesn't matter. The point is, that was introduced into my life after many, many years of stay-at-home parenting. I was like, oh, my gosh, I finally have this little break from the rainstorm for just a few days so I can catch my breath. I found that I came back as a far stronger mom. If we're going to put our little wish lists out there for how to help society, I don't think mandatory divorce is the answer, but --

Anne: -- That's the problem. If the only way for you to get those moments is a divorce, that shows that something is wrong.

Zibby: That's true. More evolved couples, perhaps, could've had some sort of -- I don't know. I think you're right. I'll just get away from my own situation. Having the breaks now has been absolutely lifesaving to me. I don't think I could even have this whole creative pursuit in my life and all this stuff without the sleep and the regeneration. Not to brag.

Anne: Totally. You're not alone. Also, other parents have told me that they want to be better, more patient parents. If you're so tired, you're just kind of at this baseline of annoyance. You don't like the sort of parent that you become. That's hard. I find that sometimes in my relationship where I'm like, I'm not being the partner that I want to be right now. How do I try to fix that? Usually, it's take a nap. [laughter]

Zibby: I remember in college when I would get so worn out and so tired from studying and all this stuff and I'd be like, should I take a nap or should I go to the gym? Should I take a nap or should I go to the gym? I was like, I don't know, I only have thirty-five minutes. Now I have thirty-four minutes. Now I only have thirty-two minutes. Let me try to take a nap. Oh, no, now I can't sleep. [laughs]

Anne: That's the thing. This is such a great example of the optimized way that we approach our time. When you're like, I have thirty minutes to nap, that's the only time I have a nap, and it becomes such an overdetermined, like, I have to nap right now, that I can't nap ever because you're like, I have to do this thing right now. It doesn't work.

Zibby: This is why I never nap. This is literally it. Unless I am so tired that I somehow just basically fall over or I'm reading to a kid or I'm reading to myself and next thing I know all the lights are on and I'm sound asleep. Yes, that's a problem.

Anne: When your body tells you. Your body forces you to say, it doesn't matter if you don't have time for this.

Zibby: Naptime, ready or not, here we come. Oh, my gosh, that's funny. You have Can't Even out there, which is so exciting. What are your ambitions now? Do you want to be political? Not necessarily the president. Do you want to try to affect societal change? Do you want to keep writing? Do you want to focus on this? What do you think?

Anne: I'm not a policymaker. I like reading other people's policy suggestions, but that's not my expertise. People have a lot of expertise in that area, and familiarity. My PhD is in media studies. I love reading history and synthesizing ideas and trying to figure out what's going on. Why are we acting in the way that we are acting? I guess you could call that examining ideologies of a given moment, that sort of thing. I think that my next project is going to do with work from home and the brave new world of hybrid working from home and how you can prevent it from sucking your life into it. It could be a real way to even become more burnt out or it can help us think about how to reorient our lives away from work, which might be revelatory. Still trying to think through some of the first steps on that.

Zibby: I love that. I actually have found with so much more stuff going on at home that all of the stress of logistics and running around has taken a big burden off. I have all this extra time and energy now that I'm not racing from place to place and figuring out how to get all my kids there. Now it's like, okay, you do your thing right there.

Anne: I used to travel so much for work and for speaking stuff and that sort of thing. I think for a lot of people who have been slowed down by the pandemic generally -- obviously, when we can start moving around a little bit, I'm going on a vacation, having our actual vacation as soon as possible. I can't see myself returning to that level of franticness. It's one of the small silver linings of all of this, is some perspective.

Zibby: It's true. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

Anne: This is what people always say, but I really think sometimes you get really precious about writing and are like, I have to be in the right place. It has to be the right kind of writing. It needs to be good as it comes out. I am a big proponent of just barfing on the page and then coming back and editing. Write a lot.

Zibby: Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books" and for our little therapy over anger and society and divorce and all the rest. Congratulations again on your book coming out.

Anne: Thank you so much. This was great.

Zibby: Bye.

Anne: Bye.

Cheryl Strayed, THIS TELLING

Zibby Owens: This is a recording of the Instagram Live that I did with Cheryl Strayed. I was over the moon to be interviewing her. I have been a fan for so long. You can probably tell in my fandom, adulation, and all the rest when I talk to her. I hope I did an okay job. I was stuttering. I was a little bit nervous, actually, because I'm such a fan. Anyway, Cheryl Strayed is the author of the number-one New York Times best-selling memoir Wild, the New York Times best sellers Tiny Beautiful Things and Brave Enough, and the novel Torch. Wild was chosen by Oprah Winfrey as her first selection for Oprah's Book Club 2.0. Her books have been translated into nearly forty languages around the world and have been adapted for both the screen and the stage. The Oscar-nominated movie adaptation of Wild stars Reese Witherspoon as Cheryl and Laura Dern as Cheryl's mother, Bobbi. Tiny Beautiful Things was adapted for the stage by Nia Vardalos who also starred in the role of Sugar/Cheryl. By the way, that's who was in My Big Fat Greek Wedding. The play was directed by Thomas Kail and debuted at The Public Theater in New York City. Cheryl is the host of the New York Times hit podcast, "Sugar Calling," and also "Dear Sugars" which she co-hosted with Steve Almond. Her essays have been published in The Best American Essays, The New York Times, The Washington Post Magazine, Vogue, Salon, The Sun, Tin House, The New York Times Book Review, and elsewhere. She holds an MFA in fiction writing from Syracuse University and a bachelor’s degree from the University of Minnesota. She lives in Portland, Oregon. I spoke to Cheryl on our Instagram Live about her new story called This Telling which is an Amazon Original Story, kind of a mini-novella. She calls it a long story. Anyway, that's what we talked about. It's really great. It just came out.

Cheryl Strayed: Hi. Zibby, hi. How are you?

Zibby: I'm good. How are you?

Cheryl: Oh, my gosh, it's so nice to see you.

Zibby: It's so nice to see you too. I am so excited to be talking to you. You're such a hero of mine. Thank you for doing this.

Cheryl: Thank you. I think you're pretty awesome yourself. I just heard you say that you're a memoir addict. I love memoir addicts. I'm one too.

Zibby: We could talk about these all day. Have you read a good one lately? Should we chat memoirs?

Cheryl: Oh, gosh.

Zibby: I know. There's so many, right?

Cheryl: Yeah. The minute people ask me that question, my mind goes blank. I can tell you a couple of amazing books I've read. The Undocumented Americans, are you familiar with this book?

Zibby: I'm not.

Cheryl: Karla Cornejo Villa -- I should've written down her name.

Zibby: It's okay. I caught you unaware.

Cheryl: The Undocumented Americans, really a stunning, amazing book. I love Motherland by Elissa Altman.

Zibby: Me too.

Cheryl: Did you love that?

Zibby: Love it. Love her. Such a huge fan.

Cheryl: Me too. Also, I'm almost done reading Caste by Elizabeth Wilkerson, which is not a memoir. She writes about aspects of her life. Wow, have you read that book yet?

Zibby: It's on my shelf. I have it. I just have not gotten there yet, but I'm getting to it.

Cheryl: I feel like everyone in America should read Caste.

Zibby: Yes. My mother was like, "You have to read this book." If nothing else, I'm going to read it for her.

Cheryl: That's great. Do you have a child behind you? I'm going to put on my glasses so I can see this.

Zibby: Oh, gosh. Thank you for telling me.

Cheryl: There was a little urchin popping up.

Zibby: Guys, get out. Thank you. Sorry. It's five o'clock on a school night. I'm very sorry. This is what happens. [laughs]

Cheryl: Oh, no worries. I have two teenagers. I don't think they're going to pop up, but you never know.

Zibby: You never know. Let's talk about your latest which I listened to in the car the other morning with my husband and my sister-in-law and everybody. We just loved it, This Telling, part of the Out of Line series which are all about women on the verge of a breakthrough. You're in such good company with Roxane Gay and Emma Donoghue and all these great women authors writing about feminist stuff. For those people on the Instagram Live who haven't read it or don't even know about it that much yet, can you please tell us a little more about the story?

Cheryl: I was approached by [indiscernible] and the editors there to write a piece of feminist fiction, a short story. They basically said, whatever you want to do, just make sure it's feminist. Of course, I thought, well, that's everything I write. I am a feminist. It's part of all of my work. When I started to think about what I was going to write about, what kept emerging is this story that I have been wanting to tell and trying to tell in one form or another for actually many years. It's rooted in a piece of my own personal history. It's one of those scenarios where I've always thought, what if it went the other way? It's this. When my mom was in her teens in the 1960s, she became pregnant. She was not married. She got pregnant. Because abortion was illegal then and, as we know, there was a lot of social censure against women having babies without men, she was basically forced to marry my dad. That's why my parents got married. My mom was pregnant with my sister. She had me and my brother and sister. Onward she went.

When I was a teenager and really asking my mom about her life, she told me this story about the choice that she had, which was really no choice at all. Those of you who are familiar with my other work know that my parents' marriage was a terrible one. My father was abusive to her. It was a very hard thing to endure. The little creative writer in me really reflected upon the impact that that kind of lack of reproductive choice, the impact of that on girls and women. In my mother's life, it pushed her in one direction. The main character in This Telling, a young woman named Geraldine, finds herself in the exact same situation my mom found herself in. It's the mid-sixties. She's just out of high school. She finds out she's pregnant. What was fun and fascinating for me to do is just imagine, what if my mom had taken this other track? What would've happened? What would be the outcome of that? With Geraldine, I followed her. The story opens up when she's seventeen. It ends when she's seventy. I follow her. The story is very, very, as you know, little micro-chapters as we follow her over the course of her life and how she reckons with that decision she made back in the sixties.

Zibby: Wow. It brings up so many what-ifs for so many people, and especially in light of all the prevalence of DNA testing and everything that's going on. A friend, I just saw the other day, just told me that she found out she was adopted. She's sixty years old. This happens all the time now. All these things that we thought were secrets or that people thought were secrets are no longer secrets. I feel like that's really what your story was about. It's this corrosive power of secrets and how keeping them can just affect everything from the inside out for the rest of your life, more so than whatever actually happened in some cases.

Cheryl: Completely. I'm so glad you picked up on that because that's what I was really also trying to interrogate, is the way that silence is always serving in cooperation with shame. The reason we have secrets is we're ashamed to tell the truth. Of course, as we've seen over and over again, that especially when it comes to the realities of the lives of women, the lives of mothers, the radical act of telling the truth is a radical act. Change can't be made until people say, as you see -- I almost just said me too. Me too when it comes to sexual violence and sexual harassment. Me too when it comes to abortions or finding yourself in relationships or situations that you wouldn't have imagined or expected. So much of, essentially, women's bodies are cloaked in shame. This story, for me, was about the impact of shame on one woman's life in the form of my main character Geraldine, but also her movement, we don't want to spoil the story, but her movement towards stepping out of that shame. In some ways, the only way to reject shame is to tell the truth about who you are. That is just a fact. That’s so much easier said than done, especially if you're someone like Geraldine who has been really steeped in a culture, in a generation that said, no, you should be ashamed.

Zibby: It's hard to believe, maybe because I live in New York, that there are still places that view all of the choices as not really choices now, that there are different tolerances, I should say, of all sorts of things, and control and all these things. Anyway, away from politics.

Cheryl: Zibby, I want to say something about that because I think it's really an important thing for us to remember. I think a lot of American women sort of think, oh, yeah, we have access to birth control. Abortion has been legal for a long time. We have all kinds of choices when it comes to reproduction. First of all, those things are very much being threatened on many fronts right now. Also, what I found is we even have kind of revisionist history about that. When I was writing This Telling, like all stories, it always goes through an editorial process. Geraldine, my character, she gets pregnant in 1964. The editor was like, "Wait a minute, wasn't birth control legal by then?" It really was fascinating for me because I think a lot of people are like, yeah, it's been legal since the sixties. Then when I actually did the research and learned that, technically, a very small group of women had access to the pill earlier in the sixties, and they were married women in certain states, that they literally had to have permission from their husband to be prescribed the pill. It really wasn't until the early seventies that women in all states could get the pill even if you weren’t married, which was later than I even imagined. That was the other piece of that. It's, in some ways, a historical story. It only goes back to '64, but that's been more than fifty years now. I think we forget what it was really like for women who were coming of age in the sixties. We think of it as this wild and free time. Actually, most of America was really quite still very conservative, certainly when it came to issues of sex and female bodies.

Zibby: Tell me about writing something like this which, in audio form, was forty-five minutes. I'm not even sure how long it would have been had I read it in hard copy. Tell me about trying to get so much into this format. This is not a common length, necessarily. It's not a short story. It's more like a novella of sorts. You've done in-depth memoir and all the rest. What was this particular assignment like for you?

Cheryl: I'm so glad you're asking about that. What I try to do with everything I write is I try to do something new. I try to stretch myself. Trust me Zibby, there were so many times where I cursed myself. Like I said, it starts when she's seventeen and ends when she's seventy. To really try to tell that much of a life in that small of a space -- it is a short story, but it's a long short story. To try to fit that in was a challenge. With the style -- I don't know if you noticed. I'm sure you noticed.

Zibby: I did. The chapters?

Cheryl: I had to be kind of minimal in the language. Each chapter is almost like a little sketch, just a sketch of a moment or one scene or a gesture or a thought. I tried, in some cases, to summarize a whole era in a very concise way. It was really fun for me on the level of language of trying to say as much in a most economical fashion as I could.

Zibby: It's so funny. My husband, sometimes I read him books. Sometimes I make him listen to audiobooks like this, and especially in the car. This one, he listened to. I was like, "What did you think? That was so great." He was like, "I just felt like it was very abrupt. Each chapter ended in such an abrupt way." I was like, "But that was so great because then you wanted to listen to the next chapter." I think that's what propels a reader on so well, the shortness, the right to the point of it, basically. That's the whole trick of a writer, is getting an image into somebody else's head in the least amount of words, unless you're heavily invested in the actual beauty of each individual sentence, but you have to do your job. It has to get the point across. With the shoes, for instance, that was such a perfect thing. I won't give anything away. The shoes, the spotting each other at the mall, these little moments with just little -- it's great. It's just amazing.

Cheryl: It's definitely, for me, a challenge as a writer to let each piece be what it is. I would say that most of my work, I'm much more expansive and much more like, I'm going to describe everything and tell the full story behind all of these details. That was the cool part, is trying to do that very minimalistic, abrupt -- I wouldn't use the word abrupt, but certainly concise and knowing that there's so much off the page that I'm hoping that the reader in their mind will elaborate on, if that makes sense.

Zibby: Of course it makes sense.

Cheryl: Kristen Bell read it.

Zibby: Yes, I know. That was so cool. That was so neat.

Cheryl: It's funny. As I was writing this piece, it was late last year, early this year, my daughter and husband and I were binge-watching The Good Place. It felt perfect that she was the one to read it.

Zibby: Did you get to pick? Did you have any say in that, or not?

Cheryl: I had a little say. She's the perfect choice.

Zibby: That's excellent. You've been writing for so long. I was on your Instagram earlier. You had the picture of yourself twenty-five years ago for Wild. I was like, wow, was it that long ago? When you read your writing, it feels like it happened yesterday. You're so in it. This sense of immediacy is just overpowering. Yet it's from a long time ago. You've been writing and producing all this stuff about all these periods of your life. I know you say you like to experiment with form, but how do you keep it interesting to yourself? How do you keep coming up with new stuff? How do you keep it going so well? What's the secret?

Cheryl: It's true, I've been a writer since I was nineteen. I'm fifty-two now. With Wild, I didn't actually write the book until much later. I've written all along the way. I have been publishing work since I was in my twenties. One of the ways to keep it alive is I always do take on a challenge. With every piece, I don't feel like, okay, I've got all these years of writing behind me. What I feel like is, how am I going to pull this off? I always feel afraid. I always feel like I can't do it. One of things I say over and over is that the way it feels to me to write a book is that I can't write a book. The way it feels to me to write a short story is, I can't write a short story. I can't even tell you how many times during This Telling that I just thought, I give up. I surrender. I'm retiring. I can't do it. Then you persevere. You get through it. You do your best. That’s the thing, too, that I want to say.

I do want to tell people, you can go to Amazon and get my story, This Telling, just clickity, click, click. You could also get the whole collection, my story along with all the other amazing writers who are in the collection. What I always feel really full in my heart, whether it be I'm writing a short story like This Telling or my next book or Wild, is that I'm trying to do my very best. I'm trying to use all of my intelligence. I'm going to try to put my whole heart into that work. I labor over every word again and again and again, but my work ends with the writing. I can't help it if people love it or if they hate it or if they're indifferent to it. I try to really just focus on the work and not on people's opinions of that work. I think that that in some ways keeps me really alive as a writer because I'm putting my focus always on, how can I make the best words on the page today, or on the computer screen today? I think if I shifted my attention to being like, do they love it, do they hate it, what do they think? that's when I would lose my grounding as a writer.

Zibby: Interesting. When you first came out with Wild and you shared everything, it's like you're an open book. We know all about so much stuff about you. Do you feel as you're going through life that you make different decisions about what you want to share, what you feel comfortable sharing? Do you regret any of the earlier sharing? Is there anything you'd want to take back? How about your kids? Where are you in this today?

Cheryl: There's nothing I would take back. My first pieces when I first began publishing back in my twenties, they were essays that were extremely revealing like Wild is, two essays. One's called "The Love of My Life." One is "Heroin." They both ended up in Best American Essays. They both introduced me to a big audience in a situation where I was really laying bare my heart. It was extremely educational for me. It was a sort of practice for what would happen with Wild which was a million times bigger, but that people who I don't know would know a lot about my personal life. What I try to do as a memoirist and personal essayist is really to try to be as vulnerable and brave as I could possibly be about telling the truth about who I am and about my experiences in my life, shucking off that thing, that silence and shame that we were talking about. My character in This Telling essentially lived her life under the trap of silence and shame. I, as a writer, do the opposite of that. I'm like, if I'm ashamed about it, I'm going to write about it. I do think that, for me, it was really important to be mostly vulnerable with myself.

I'm definitely careful about the things I write about other people. I don't say, okay, I'm just going to say everything. I'm going to talk about my siblings. I'm going to talk about my husband. I'm going to talk about my kids. It's not that I don't write about them. When I do write about them, I am more considered because I don't think it's my right to violate their privacy. I try to violate my own privacy, not other people's. Of course, inevitably when you write about people, you do have to sometimes announce to the world things about them that they wouldn't otherwise tell. I try to do that with a lot of love and respect and also sometimes permission. My kids are teenagers now. They haven't read my books, but a lot of their peers have. I feel okay with it. I think that someday they’ll come to my books and they’ll be grateful that they can see the inner life of their mom. I would certainly have loved to have that.

Zibby: That's a nice way to look at it. I don't know. Would I want to know the inner life of my mom? I'm not sure. [laughs]

Cheryl: My mom's been dead a long time. I would love that. I would love to have that. I think when your mom is still alive and you're active, that maybe you still need to have that kind of boundary. I certainly by no means would ever say to my kids, okay, time to read Mommy's books now. I think that they’ll come to them when they do. It could be well into their adulthood.

Zibby: So what are you working on now? What's your next book?

Cheryl: I'm working on another book. I just finished writing a screenplay. I was hired to write a screenplay about a very interesting person. I can't say who it is. I finished that. I'm doing some revisions on that right now and working on my next book. Listen, it's a novel, but then I'm also working on a memoir. I keep changing my mind about which one I'm going to finish first. I'm kind of running two races at the same time. I'm not sure who's going to win. Memoir or novel? Memoir or novel? It's funny. Wild was published in March of 2012. Then Tiny Beautiful Things was published literally four or five months later, which is insane. I had a crazy year of book promotion, more than a year to be honest. I just wonder because I'm writing these two books at the same time -- they won't, probably, come out four months apart, but they might come out in quicker succession than expected.

Zibby: How are you toggling back and forth like that? How are you structuring your time? How are you allotting time to each project? How do you even, in your head, keep it straight? Is it just, you pick it up when you are inspired for each one?

Cheryl: I'm going to actually do a little writing retreat soon. I think what's going to happen is -- I'm at the moment of truth, like, okay Cheryl -- because I can't. I can't really get to that total sink-in mode until I commit. I've written a bit of both, a substantial amount of both. There's a certain point where I'm like, now this one, I'm diving in. That decision's coming very soon. You're right. I don't go day by day. I'll work for a month on this and get stuck. Then I'll work for a month on this and get stuck. I'm going to have to make a decision. Do you have a vote? Novel or memoir? Oh, you're a memoir addict.

Zibby: I was going to say, I vote for memoir all the time. I also love fiction, though. I read a ton of fiction. I love both. There's just something about memoirs that’s so intimate where I know it's you. It's not like I suspend disbelief and it's a character. I can still get really emotionally invested, and I love it. With a memoir, it's literally, like what you were saying, someone's just giving you their diary. They're like, here, let me put this in your hand. Then I'm going to just stand by and let you read it. I just feel this enormous gratitude to memoirists because I'm like, thank you. Thank you for trusting the reader, essentially, with what you're writing. I think it always helps so much. It helps somebody with what you're going through.

Cheryl: Totally. It's interesting, absolutely. Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things and Brave Enough, all three of them nonfiction, so many people say, you helped me with these books. My first book, Torch, is a novel. Lots and lots of people read that and say, oh, my gosh, that helped me so much. I saw myself in these characters. I do think that, for me, really good fiction, it does that thing where you actually feel like you're reading about real people. You can identify with that character as much as you identify with somebody who happens to be a real person. I think that it can have that function. I will say writing This Telling made me feel like, oh, my gosh, it's so fun to be back in the world of fiction again because you can change your character's plot. You can be like, wait a minute, let's have her do this instead of that. Whereas memoir, you're stuck with the plot of your own life.

Zibby: That's true. Memory, of course, is a big constraint. You talked about writing a screenplay. What has it been like entering the Hollywood land of life? What is like being in the entertainment world in that way?

Cheryl: A whole new universe. It really is a new universe. First of all, the Wild movie experience was as good as it could possibly be for a writer. I have friends who have had really bad experiences in Hollywood. Most writers have the experience of having their book optioned and they're so excited about it and it's glorious, and then nothing happens. I had the great fortunate of having Reese Witherspoon. She was partnered with this producer, Bruna Papandrea. They were just like, we're going to make this movie. We're going to get it done. It was amazing. They got to work on it. They hired Nick Hornby to write the script. Next thing you knew, we were rolling. We shot it in Oregon. I was really very involved with everything. They sent me the script. I would weigh in on it. They had me on the set. I got to become friends with all the people who made the movie, Laura Dern who played my mom and Reese who played me and lots of folks. It was just a wonderful experience.

What was really cool about it is, I knew from the start that I was going to need to not be like, wait a minute, cut, that's not how it is. That's not how the book is. I had to really realize this film is not my book. My book is my book. My book is the thing I made. What they're making is an interpretation of this. It's its own thing. If you only see the movie, you didn't really have the Wild experience. There's so much more in the book. I think that the movie did a really beautiful job being true to the book in a lot of ways and honoring the book, but there's stuff in the book that there couldn't be in the movie. They had to really streamline it more, as you do. Now being a writer in Hollywood too just as a sideline job has been really fun. Like I said, I'm really into trying new stuff. That's how "Dear Sugar" was born. I was asked to write an advice column. I said, "I'm not an advice giver. I don't write advice columns." Then there, I went for it. It was honestly one of the biggest things of my life, a really powerful thing. When I was asked to write this screenplay, I was afraid. I thought maybe I can't do it. Then I did it. I felt like, wow, I learned so much in that process. I'll be able to talk about it more directly someday, I hope. I do hope the movie gets made because it's a really cool experience. It's a different world, but it's also a wonderful -- I learned a lot about writing in writing in that very new form.

Zibby: I think we need to explore at some point, why you keep thinking you can't do it and why you're scared at the beginning of projects when all evidence is to the contrary. I guess that's just the way people are.

Cheryl: Would you please be my therapist, Zibby?

Zibby: No problem.

Cheryl: It's because I'm damaged. I'm laughing, but I'm telling you the truth. I really always think I can't do it. Then I always do it. It's just part of me. It's my psyche. I don't think it's necessarily a sign of weakness. I don't know that it's something I have to fix. Maybe it's just that I'm embracing it really fully and saying, this is how I feel. This is how it feels. It's scary. It's hard. The fact that I always meet that fear and difficulty with essentially saying, I'm going to persist anyway in doing it, I think that's what matters in the end.

Zibby: You're absolutely right.

Cheryl: I think I'm not alone. I can't read the comments, but are people saying, I feel that way too?

Zibby: I haven't been reading them either, but I guarantee you, I know other people are feeling that way because most authors I talk to are like, that must have been a fluke. I hope I can do it. It's not just you.

Cheryl: Is it called imposter syndrome or something? What's weird is whenever I hear that phrase, imposter syndrome, I don't feel like an imposter in that kind of larger way. I definitely feel like, yep, I am a writer. This is my call. I've answered that call. To me, the imposter is more on the daily. There I am sitting in front of my laptop, and I have to do what I feel I cannot do.

Zibby: This is what I say to my daughter when she gets scared to go to school or something like that. We have this mantra. I've done it before, and I can do it again. I just have her say that over and over or I write it on a little piece of paper. Now that's our thing. You're free to use that if that helps. [laughs]

Cheryl: It's a great one.

Zibby: What advice would you have to aspiring authors?

Cheryl: So much advice, but let me just give a little bit. I think that this thing we're talking about is really key. I would say that most writers I know struggle with this very thing I was just talking about, that sense of doubt or doom, or I tried and I failed and I can't do this, that voice in your head that keeps you from writing. You have to come up with a way to work with that. Probably, what's going to happen isn't that suddenly one day you're going to be like, I'm a great writer and everything I say is brilliant, and so let me just type away. That's probably not going to happen. I don't know one person who writes that way. You need to learn how to manage those voices in your head and decide that you're going to continue the work even if it's hard and even if it feels impossible or scary. You also have to find a way to glide past the external voices who say that's not a very good career plan or hardly any writers make a living from writing or all of those practical advice givers who basically want you to go get what they call a real job.

What I would say to anyone who really wants to be a writer is writing is a real job. It's the realest work I've ever done. Of course, it's fraught with all kinds of -- there are no guarantees to any kind of artist in this world that you'll ever have that external success that manifests itself in a check in the mail. We know that you won't get the check if you don't try. We know that you won't succeed as a writer if you don't write. Decide to keep faith with that. Decide to keep faith with the daily practice of doing it. By daily practice of doing it, I don't mean you have to write every day. I mean whatever little fire that you have burning in you that tells you you're a writer, feed that fire. Do that work. Whether you write one time a month for a day or write every day, come up with some system where you get the work done in spite of all of the forces against you that live both in your head and out in the world.

Zibby: Once you finish something great, do you allow yourself to be like, actually, this is pretty awesome, once it's all done?

Cheryl: Yeah, every single time. Here's the other thing. I guess that's the benefit for me of being an experienced writer now. I actually can see, I know the pattern. The pattern is, I can't do this. This is impossible. I can't do it. I quit. I quit. No, no, no. Then I keep going. I keep going, and keep going, and keep going. I get to the end. Then I look at it. I think, wait a minute, what was wrong with me? This isn't so bad. This is actually kind of okay. It might not be perfect or the best thing I've ever written and some people might not love it, but hey, it stands up, man. I did it. I made it. The reason it's such hard labor is we writers, we make something that didn't exist before. We made a story where there was no story. We made a poem where there was no poem. We made a play, a screenplay, whatever it is. Once you have it there before you, it's hard not to have some gratitude and respect for it. Yeah, I feel great when I finish something.

Zibby: See, you're cured. Our session is over. [laughs]

Cheryl: That's right. My therapist, Zibby, has now helped me. It's so much like running a marathon or hiking a long trail if we want to use Wild as the metaphor. Every time I go on a hike, there are times where it's like, okay, this is hard. It's hard to keep pushing up the mountain. Then you get there and you're like, this is glorious. That was worth it. Persistence is such a key piece of being a writer.

Zibby: That's amazing, and also loops back in with This Telling and the whole feminist theme of the entire series, of the entire collection. It's all about breaking through and doing great work and achieving and not giving up.

Cheryl: That's right, and staying strong even through the hard times. Full circle.

Zibby: Full circle. Cheryl, thank you so much. I was so excited to do this with you. Again, I have so much respect for you. It's been so nice getting to talk to you one on one. Thank you.

Cheryl: It's really, really lovely to talk to you as well. Thank you for all of you who are listening to us and tune into this. I hope you go and read This Telling. I hope you enjoy it.

Zibby: Yes, absolutely. I think I have a code on Audible because they're my sponsor now. You can get a free month on Audible. Audible.com/zibby, and you get a free month of Audible. Use it to get This Telling.

Cheryl: You can listen to it on Audible like you did or you can go read it. Go do Zibby's link, everyone.

Zibby: If you want. You don't have to, but I just realized. Anyway, thank you so much. Stay in touch.

Cheryl: You too. Bye, Zibby. Thank you.

Zibby: Buh-bye.

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Terri Cheney, MODERN MADNESS

Zibby Owens: Welcome, Terri. Thank you so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books" to talk about Modern Madness, which was so, so good.

Terri Cheney: Thank you. Thank you, Zibby, for having me.

Zibby: I have to say, I had seen the Modern Love episode on which this book was based, or on which the article -- I'm not even saying this right. You wrote a Modern Love article. It became a TV show. You've written a book. I started by seeing the TV episode, which was great.

Terri: With Anne Hathaway playing me. That was incredible.

Zibby: What was that like for you?

Terri: Every woman's dream to have -- I looked so good. I never knew. [laughs]

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. How involved were you with that piece of this?

Terri: They were great. The producers realized -- I contacted them when I found out the article was going to be turned into an episode. I said, "This is about mental health and mental illness. It really needs to be accurate." They actually let me in on the process. I got to talk with Anne and with the director, John Carney. I think they did a really good job as far as portraying manic depression/bipolar disorder is concerned.

Zibby: It was a really gripping episode from the highs to the lows. You could just see how embarrassed, almost, that she was and having to cancel things. That was the TV. That was great.

Terri: That was wonderful.

Zibby: On to the book. In terms of timing, did you write the Modern Love piece and then you wrote the book? What happened?

Terri: I wrote the Modern Love piece back in 2008. Then a month later, my first book, Manic, came out and became a New York Times best seller, I think largely riding on that Modern Love piece because that reaches so many people.

Zibby: Now you're coming out with this having nothing to do, almost, with that. This is so much later.

Terri: Right, this is my third book now.

Zibby: I'm sorry. I feel woefully unprepared, but having read this book at least, so that's good. It starts with you talking about Michael Jackson's feet, which is not the way most books begin. The reader is immediately gripped and wondering, what is going on here? Talk to me about your high-profile lawyerly life and then having to deal with mental illness at the same time, bipolar, how you were able to fuse the two, and now where you are.

Terri: I started as an entertainment lawyer. I live in Beverly Hills. I represented people like Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones, and major motion picture studios. That was for about sixteen years. That entire time, I was hiding a very severe case of bipolar disorder. I didn't tell anyone except my doctors. I didn't tell my friends, my coworkers, nobody, because I was just terrified that somebody would find out and I'd be fired, first of all, and then ostracized and I'd never find work or love again. Somehow, I did manage to keep it secret. I think it's because Hollywood is inherently bipolar when you think of it. It's a crazy business. It's very cyclical. Things are always happening. You want them faster, better, more, now. My manic episodes certainly fit in with that. When I was depressed, I would make up excuses or lies, frankly. I had all sorts of physical ailments that I pretended to have. Fortunately with bipolar disorder, you can make up a lot of the work that you miss because you go into this really productive mode where you can just churn stuff out. You're very charismatic and engaging and just at the top of your game. That lasted until I finally had a depression I could not hide anymore. I was hospitalized for that episode. I started writing then about my illness. First, I just wrote about the clinical stuff that I was learning. Then I thought, anybody can write about that. I want to write about what's really going on inside me, inside my body, and make it visceral so that other people understand what it's like. I found I started to get better with the writing. I just kept writing and writing and seven years later emerged with the book called Manic. To my amazement, a month later, it's a best seller. I've kept on writing ever since then.

Zibby: Why stop?

Terri: Why stop? I love it. I miss the money from practicing law, but I don't miss the lifestyle. I don't miss hiding out. That was the hardest part of my life.

Zibby: I think the corrosive power of secrets is one of the worst things. No matter what it is you're hiding, having to shoulder that burden I think [indiscernible/crosstalk] away at people quite a bit.

Terri: What I've learned is hiding a secret is often worse than the secret itself.

Zibby: I feel like a lot of books are an attempt to air those secrets and get them off of people's shoulders. That's just one way. It's like repentance of some sort.

Terri: It really does help. It's so cathartic to write about even the dark times. People often ask me, how do you go back to those suicide attempts and write about such horrible memories? For me, writing about it lets me own it. That's another subtitle to my book, An Owner's Manual. I think we all need to own our illnesses and learn about them, understand them, and acknowledge them in order to get better.

Zibby: You mention in the book later that you developed hypothyroidism and that in that instance it was diagnosed, and you got a pill and you went about your business, and how easy was that versus mental illness which comes with stigma and shame and varying medication and so much else, so much baggage versus a simply physiological issue.

Terri: I actually went around and told people, "I have hypothyroidism." I was proud of having something I could talk about as opposed to bipolar disorder. People were sympathetic.

Zibby: I always kind of am hoping -- I shouldn't say this. I'm always hoping that there's something wrong with my thyroid to explain weight gain. [laughs]

Terri: I know. A quick fix.

Zibby: I'll take one of those thyroid medicines, and I'll be fine. I'm kidding. It's true, the contrast of why we don't medicate in such a black and white way for something that is just as pronounced and specific [indiscernible/crosstalk] as all these other things is ridiculous.

Terri: I'm so glad you bring that up. If you look at mental illness, the brain is an organ. It's not in your mind. The mental illness is not really in your mind. It's in your brain. The brain is just a three-and-a-half-pound organ. Robin Williams said that. It is like any other organ in the body like your liver. You wouldn't tell somebody with liver disease to make lemonade out of lemons. You wouldn't tell Stephen Hawking to just snap out of it and get up out of his chair. It's really a physical illness. It needs to be regarded that way.

Zibby: Then you have the double isolation of, A, feeling it, and then B, being made to not feel validated in it.

Terri: Right. It is a double whammy, yes.

Zibby: You write about that so beautifully even in the very beginning when you were describing mania. Then later when you described depression, you were saying like this, "I thought faster. I wrote better. I could argue the devil out of his soul when I was manic. I was glorious, bionic, at the top of my game, and I knew it and used it against anyone who came too close. Sex was mine for the asking, money and influence too, and I owed it all to mania, including my proximity to Michael Jackson and his like. But no matter how lofty and impervious I appeared, depression could swoop in and lay me low without a word, without warning, the devil demanding a rematch. Then it was back to hiding all over again." Wow, so awesome. I mean, not awesome that it happened. Awesome that you wrote about it that way. These are so funny when you have all these things, the ten sacred rules you have to abide by when you're bipolar.

Terri: My manic cheat sheet.

Zibby: Change into something sexier. Wear granny panties and flats. Party do's and don'ts. It's so funny have such a great sense of humor about all this.

Terri: I'm so glad you say that. Of all the compliments I ever get about my writing, I love when people apologize for saying, "I'm really sorry, but I laughed throughout your book." That makes me feel so good because I know I touched them the way I wanted to. So much of mental illness can become extreme. In extremity, there's absurdity. You have to sometimes stand back and just say, this is ridiculous, what I'm going through. It can be funny, in a very dark way, but nonetheless.

Zibby: In a very dark way. It's similar in a way to grief. It knocks you off your feet. Yet there are moments where you can't help but find the absurdity and humor. You just have to laugh.

Terri: You feel a little guilty about that. I don't know quite why one would feel guilty about relieving yourself of the doom for a few seconds, but sometimes they do.

Zibby: We can find ways to feel guilty about everything. If you can't, just call me. I'll find another way to [indiscernible/crosstalk] it. You talked about depression saying that you always knew you were depressed when you couldn't manage to get into the shower.

Terri: The shower is my nemesis. I just have the worst time. I suffer from something called psychomotor retardation when I'm depressed. That means my body and my will are paralyzed. I'm looking at pen right now on my desk that's about a foot away. If I wanted to pick up that pen, I would have to stare at it for fifteen or twenty minutes just to get my arm to move over to the pen and pick it up. I'm noticing, COVID-19, a lot of people are complaining about lack of productivity. That's what it feels like. You just cannot do what you need to do. Showering, for me, is the number-one worst thing I have to do. I hate it. I hate getting wet. I like being clean, but I hate everything else about it.

Zibby: It's so funny. My mother-in-law had these two dogs who are now staying with us. One of them hates to get wet. You're just like, okay, the dog doesn't need to get -- you just won't shower them. If you're a human being, you can't be like, I don't like getting wet. [laughs] Doesn't fly so easily.

Terri: I really do like being clean. That's what's so ironic about it.

Zibby: They have dry shampoo now.

Terri: Believe me, I have stock in it. [laughs] I know.

Zibby: You wrote in the book too, sadly, as you referenced earlier, about times where you really wanted to die and how depression is just like fighting death. It's the death march in a way. You were in the snow, and then your body actually is the one that made you snap out of it. Tell me about that moment a little bit.

Terri: I was in New Mexico, in Santa Fe. My father had died. After that, I had attempted a very, very serious suicide attempt which I shockingly survived. I wrote about it in the first story of Manic. I'm walking out after I got out of the hospital in the snow at night. I come to this park. I just realize I can't go any further. I don't want to go on. I thought, maybe I'll just freeze to death in the snow. That's got to be an easy way to go. It probably doesn't hurt very much because you're frozen. I lay down in the snow. Sure enough, it started to really hurt. Unconsciously or subconsciously, I just started flapping my arms up and down, and my legs, to get the circulation going. I stood up. I looked around. I realized I'd made angel wings in the snow. That was such a beautiful moment. I thought, you know, there is a reason I survived that suicide attempt. It's got to be that I'm supposed to give witness to the pain of what other people are suffering with this disease. It's hard to remember that now, but it was a moment. It was an epiphany.

Zibby: I'm sorry that you have anointed yourself the storyteller for this, but you write about it really poignantly and beautifully. If it had to be anyone, life picked a good storyteller.

Terri: I think the reasons were given. The gifts were given. That had to be mine.

Zibby: When you're doing the actual writing -- first of all, do you still go through the highs and lows in the same way? Have you found some medications that have stabilized things completely or more? Then what happens when you're writing? Can you still write through one of the hypo-paralyzed states? Tell me about that.

Terri: I'm pretty stable now, relatively, compared to what I used to be. I don't have the extreme highs that I used to or, fingers crossed here, the extreme lows. I do sometimes get depressed, mostly in response to external triggers like relationship problems. Who doesn't get depressed? It can trigger a chemical depression. My medication is working. I'm really lucky. I work closely with a psychopharmacologist who manages the medications especially. As for writing, I can't write when I'm depressed because that involves the moving the pen thing, and I can't move. I try to write when I'm manic, but I write in this really tiny, tiny, tiny, illegible script that you can't hardly see or else my fingers fly so fast over the keyboard. It's just rubbish. There's a sweet spot. Fortunately, I've been in the sweet spot for a while where I can write and make sense and have some perspective about my illness.

Zibby: Wow. What do you do to get through the pandemic? What do you do now? Are you working on another book? How do you make sure you don't slip? Do you carry that fear with you all the time? I feel like I would be very nervous.

Terri: That's a really good question. I'm always afraid of depression. You said earlier it's like battling death. I don't think I ever thought of it in those terms before. I may just have to steal that from you. That's really powerful. It is like that. Yes, I'm afraid, but for some weird reason -- I'm not the only person with a mental illness who feels this way. I've had a lot of readers write in and tell me that, I feel like I've been in training for COVID because I'm used to isolating. I'm used to binge-watching Netflix. I'm used to eating everything in my refrigerator and not talking to people on the phone. I have my coping skills that I developed during depressions. I'm using them to good stead now. I think I'm doing pretty well. Surprised me.

Zibby: See? Silver linings here.

Terri: Definitely a silver lining.

Zibby: Did the writing and the style and all of it just come naturally to you? Did you get any sort of training or writing classes or anything like that?

Terri: I wanted to be a writer since I was a little girl and my father read to me every night before, I think, I could even speak. I've always wanted to write. I've always written. I went to Vassar College and was an English major, had a creative thesis there. Somehow, I just got derailed with the entertainment litigation. That was the wrong direction for my life to go in. Even while I was practicing law, I was taking classes. I belong to a wonderful writing group that I've been in for about fifteen or twenty years now. Writing has always been a huge part of my life. It's how I stay sane.

Zibby: You're the accidental litigator.

Terri: [laughs] Yes. That may be the title of my next book. Thank you.

Zibby: Great. Just take the transcript of this and use it for whatever you want. Be my guest. That's funny.

Terri: I'm writing it down.

Zibby: What about reading? Do you love to read? Were you always a reader from a young ago too?

Terri: I'm a book hound. I'm looking at your living room or wherever you're sitting right now and absolutely devouring the books behind you. You have such a wonderful library there.

Zibby: This is my whole -- all the way around.

Terri: Oh, my god, that's my dream. That is my dream. I have books everywhere in my house, but you can't see them from my Zoom feed. I do read, yes.

Zibby: I believe you. [laughs]

Terri: They're all under my bed, too, gathering moss.

Zibby: Do you gravitate toward memoir? Do you have a genre you like?

Terri: I tend to read nineteenth century and before. I'm very much the Jane Austen girl. I love Fitzgerald too. I love people who love words. I love an author, Nabokov, anyone who can just make me look at phrase and say, oh, that's what language is supposed to do. That gives me a thrill. I think that's almost as good as sex. It's great.

Zibby: [laughs] Sentences versus sex. Who will win? Do you have any advice for, twofold, one for aspiring authors, but also for anybody out there who might have a mental illness and maybe hasn’t been as forthcoming as you have and is still more in the hiding phase?

Terri: First of all, I think everybody who has a mental illness should at least be keeping some kind of mood journal where you track your episodes because that's the only way you can really get a handle on something as tricky as bipolar disorder, is to see the pattern of it as it plays out. I can only go by my own experience which has been, before Manic was published, the night before, literally, I wanted to call my editor and just call the whole off. I thought, what am I doing? This is crazy. Nobody's going to understand what I'm writing about. The response to coming out of the closet, which was a very deep closet for me and lasted for many, many years, has been incredible. The support, the compassion that people have shown me, I never would've guessed in a million years that people could be so understanding. I'm always hearing about my courage. I just felt backed up against a wall. It was either stop hiding or die. Those were my choices. I don't know how much courage was involved in that.

Zibby: Maybe you're selling yourself a little short.

Terri: Maybe.

Zibby: I think maybe courage isn't the right word, but it still takes such a strong sense of self to be able to articulate it all and share it.

Terri: I think that's where writing comes in too. The writing group that I referenced, we write our personal stories. We learn to find our own voice. That's been really influential for me to just keep digging and digging and digging. I am surrounded by journals. You can't see them right now. I still journal every day.

Zibby: I have all mine hidden under here from when I was a kid. My mom cleaned out my room years ago and was like, "Take everything."

Terri: Don't ever get rid of them. They come in so handy when you decide to write your memoirs. Believe me.

Zibby: They're all pre-twenty-two or something. Now I'm debating if I should share them with my kids. I better read them. [laughs]

Terri: Oh, yes. Read them first.

Zibby: There's some stuff I'm not so sure I'd want them to read. For people like you and me and so many other people who do write to sort things out, not having that, I don't know how anybody else does it.

Terri: I know. How do they have a conversation, even? I would have the words floating around in my head just like a jigsaw puzzle if I didn't write. I don't know how people function.

Zibby: Even for my podcast, I used to write out every question first. Now I don't do that because it's more a conversation. I wanted to have it all clear. Everything had to be clear and out of the chaos. [laughs]

Terri: When I was a litigator, I wrote every single thing I was going to say to the court down, including "and" and "the." I was very, very much that way.

Zibby: I get it. Thank you. Thanks for chatting with me today and coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Terri: It was so fun.

Zibby: I have to go back now and read Manic. That’ll be my next Amazon purchase. I shouldn't say Amazon. Whatever independent bookstore purchase that's open.

Terri: There you go.

Zibby: Anyway, thank you. I really enjoyed chatting with you. Again, your book was absolutely beautiful and so important.

Terri: I'm so glad you liked it. Thank you. It was really great chatting with you.

Zibby: You too. Have a great day.

Terri: Bye.

Zibby: Buh-bye.

Alexandra Elle, AFTER THE RAIN

Zibby Owens: Hi.

Alexandra Elle: Hi. Hello.

Zibby: Hi. How are you?

Alexandra: I'm good. How are you?

Zibby: I thought we were waiting for naptime to kick in. [laughs]

Alexandra: She went down sooner than I expected, so that's great. My husband is now wrangling our two-year-old. Our twelve-year-old is upstairs on Zoom school. We should have some good chat time now.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I have four kids, so I totally understand how it goes. None of mine are that little anymore. Thank you for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." As is evident, you really don't have time to read or to write. [laughs] I feel like I need to whisper.

Alexandra: I have to make the time.

Zibby: You have to make the time.

Alexandra: No, it's okay. You're in my AirPods, so it's okay. I can hear you up close.

Zibby: Very smart. The twelve-year-old you mention who's upstairs, is that the one from the book who was -- is that the one who was in kindergarten when you decided to -- there was something you decided when she was in kindergarten, to change your job.

Alexandra: Yeah, to quit my job.

Zibby: To quit your job and all that. So now she's twelve.

Alexandra: She's twelve now, yes. Our two-year-old is Ila who is the -- I talk about our TTC journey with her, and then Maximus is our third daughter who was our surprise, at the end of the dedication.

Zibby: Amazing. Can you please tell listeners what After the Rain is about?

Alexandra: Oh, my goodness. After the Rain is my fourth collection of work. I've been joking and saying it's like my big girl book because while the other books are very near and dear to my heart, After the Rain really gives this memoir experience of the different lessons that I've learned throughout motherhood, throughout my life so far. I've been thinking about the words to put with, what is After the Rain? For me, it feels like a collection of hope and a collection of camaraderie. I want people to be able to see themselves in the pages no matter how different their experience is from mine, but just knowing that there's this collective healing that's possible throughout the book.

Zibby: It's amazing. You talk a lot in the book about how you yourself have overcome trauma. That's, in part, how you found all the tools that you needed to get through your life and that you're now so generously sharing with the rest of us. You touch briefly on some of the ways in which you felt like you were not loved as much as a child, which broke my heart when I was reading, sitting on the steps and the gold flap of the mailbox while you waited for your dad and then he never showed up and how that broke your heart and made you feel like you were unlovable. Take me back, if you don't mind, to some of the experiences that you felt were really difficult for you as a child and made you not feel like you could love yourself.

Alexandra: I always had this on-again/off-again relationship with my biological father. I have not had a relationship with him for the past, I would say, seventeen years. It's been a very long time. In that regard, that's just been the norm. Mostly what I talk about in After the Rain is my relationship with [audio cuts outs] since she was my primary caregiver. She did the best she could with what she knew. Our relationship has come a long way. She's an amazing grandmother to my girls, an awesome mother-in-law to my husband. We are now at this stage in our mother-daughter relationship that we can really lean into our relationship from two women's perspective versus this mother-daughter dynamic. It feels really supportive. Also, good boundaries are in place for the growth of a healthy relationship now as a thirty-one-year-old woman. Growing up, she didn't really have the tools to love me, I would say. I'm able to see that clearly now as an adult. Instead of penalizing her or judging her for what she didn't do, I'm able to see that she had her own experiences, her own traumas, her own stuff that she was going through.

When we don't tackle those things, it's hard for us to love our children in the ways in which that we should. Becoming a mother, I knew that I wanted to -- I needed to love myself in order to give my then one daughter and now my three daughters the best of me. Self-love was definitely a bloom-in-process, I like to say, but also, my greatest teacher in a way because now I'm able to not only mother my children from this place of love and understanding and attention and presence, but from a self-mothering standpoint, which I find is really important. We don't often talk about how motherhood also gives birth to us in a sense. Being able to do that three times over now and really learning the different methods of care for self, I'm able to show up and care for my kids in a very different way and love my children in a very different way from how I was raised. That is really the greatest lesson in all of it. No matter the trauma I went through and the triggers and the hardship, what did I do with those lessons? It has spilled over into how I show up in my motherhood today.

Zibby: That's beautiful. I was going to get to your mom. I wasn't only going to talk about your dad. I promise.

Alexandra: I just don't have a relationship with him, so I'd rather not.

Zibby: I get it. It was just the disappointment. It was just that feeling of disappointment and sitting there. Parents always end up disappointing in some way or another. That was such a moment. Then your mom screaming at you in the car when you were trying to scooch away the day that she was in a bad mood. I get it. You're only thirty-one, oh, my gosh. I'm forty-four, and I'm finally getting to a place where I'm like, okay, maybe it's their issue and it's not directed at me.

Alexandra: It's not mine. Right.

Zibby: I feel like you have a full-on leg up on the world from a maturity standpoint, which is great.

Alexandra: It's been a long time coming. That's absolutely for sure. [laughs]

Zibby: I don't know. You still are ahead of most of the world in terms of that sort of self-acceptance and all that. What makes you want to share this? You've learned so much. You've reparented yourself, as a therapist would say. Why share it? Why give it to everybody else? Why not just go about your life? I know you love to write. You've been writing for your whole life and all the rest of it. What is about this message that you really want to just get out there, and why?

Alexandra: Community and letting folks know that they are not alone in their struggles and what they go through. I think it's really important to share stories that folks can see themselves in or that they can feel like, man, I'm not the only one who went through that. Man, I'm not the only one who went through something. Now I can be on the other side of that. That's the big messaging in After the Rain. What comes after the rain? The light comes. The rainbows come. The clouds part. We can see hope and resilience and triumph. Also, knowing that we're going to have stormy seasons in life. It's not just going to be after the rain and then, boom, we're just going to have these sunny days. No, as human beings, we move through things. Our storms are what teach us something. While a lot of what I share in this book is absolutely personal to me, it's also really pivotal to my growth and the type of woman I am, the type of person I am, the type of woman I continue to strive to be, which is one who is able to greet not only self with compassion, but others with compassion. To know that you don't have to pretend to be perfect. You don't have to pretend to have it all together. You can show up flawed on the page. You can show up flawed in life and still be worthy of moving through whatever it is you're going through. I think that that's really special and important. I find that a lot of times, we are chunked in this circle as women that we have to be strong and not have any traumas and not have any triggers. If we do, hush, don't say anything about it. That is not supportive to the collective to hoard these stories that have shaped us and maybe that have hurt us, but also that have shown us the benefits of healing and facing things head on.

Zibby: I totally agree. I do feel like, and I don't know about you, at least on social media, I feel like there's been a shift to people sharing a lot. Some people are still caught up with perfection. Here I am on the beach. Look, I'm so amazing. I'm like, I can't even look at this bikini right now. Other people, I feel like are really like, my husband just told me he's gay. Now I have to live with that. Here's how I'm crying on my pillow. I feel like there's been a shift to sharing the most intimate. I don't know. Do you feel like that? Not that your book is exploitatively sharing. It's a perfect balance. I don't know if you've noticed too, or just anecdotally.

Alexandra: I've noticed people's vulnerability being more accepted. I think that that's special. I do think there is a line in which we have to be mindful of the stories that we're sharing because, yes, they're our stories, but they are also other people's stories. I let my mom -- she read the first copy. I bookmarked every chapter about our story. I wrote her a beautiful letter. We had a really healing moment before anyone else got the book. I got my husband's blessing to share about our hardships from the fertility to the infidelity that we faced prior to getting married. We have to be very mindful of the stories that we hold in our bodies, but also other people's stories that we decide to walk into and tell. That is something that I find extremely delicate. It's not something I take for granted at all, especially as a writer knowing that I have multiple stories that don't just include me. It's not just about me. That goes back to my work as being really centered around community and how it's so important that we are mindful of what we say, how we say it, and what we share.

Zibby: Very true. How do you stay so mindful? How do you keep all of these principles that you espouse in the book that are so awesome? Then there you are trying to get your kids down for a nap. Life keeps coming up.

Alexandra: Life will continue to come up. [laughs]

Zibby: How do you keep it top of mind? How do you make sure that in the moment you're remembering all the things that you know deep down and you don't let it -- I know there was a scene at the beginning of the your book where somebody at your office said something super rude to you that I honestly couldn't even believe. You were on the street. You were trying not to scream back at him. You managed to pull it off in a very clever, awesome way, but you just wanted to scream and rage on the sidewalk. How do you pull it back?

Alexandra: How do I pull it back? I used to be really bad at pulling it back. It's interesting. I think it's important how we leave people and how we engage with people. Maya Angelou has a quote that's along the lines of, people will remember how you treated them. They will remember how you left them feeling. Even when someone is like that boss in that chapter, Change, that you're referring. I could've easily been just as awful back, but what would that have done? Nothing. It would've made me look like a jerk just like it made him look like a jerk. It's not worth the energy. Linking this to holding it together while in quarantine, while mothering three, while also being a wife, while also working from home, it takes a lot of practice and self-awareness. I know when I'm on edge. Everyone in the house knows when mom's on edge. My husband knows. He's home full time with me. I understand the privilege there. I'm able to literally step away and say, hey, I need a moment. All of this really requires being self-aware enough to name what we need and putting some of our baggage down and letting other people help us.

In motherhood, that can really get challenging because I kind of feel like sometimes we just get it done. That's what we do. We get it done. Also, our partners, if we are in partnerships -- in my position, my husband, he can also get it done. I have to be able to name what I need. I think that that's really special. That's how I'm able to keep myself together. I can be like, hey, I need five minutes. Hey, I need ten minutes. Hey, I'm going to go take a drive. I need to go run these errands. Then also recognizing that in my husband too. When I'm working all day and he's hands-on with the kids all day, making sure he's getting his time. It's just a community effort. Holding it together requires me to take care of myself so I can take care of others. I often say this in my work, self-care as community care. If we look at taking care of ourselves as an extension of showing up in our relationships, in our work, etc., then we're really able to find that balance. It's not always perfect. It's not always pretty. It's definitely a practice that's worth leaning into.

Zibby: I hear about self-care all the time. I feel like we need a new name for it. Self-care sounds indulgent. Self-care sounds like I'm kicking it and being selfish, almost, but it's not like that. It's essential. You have to do it. I feel like if there was a different name, maybe I wouldn't feel guilty doing it. [laughs]

Alexandra: I've just been shifting to taking care. Then also, self-care as community care is how I teach it when I'm teaching workshops and when I'm on my podcast and when I'm showing up in these community spaces where it does feel like self-care is a selfish thing. Audre Lorde says it best. It's not self-indulgent. It's a political statement at that, especially for women, to be able to even take five minutes to go pee in peace, to go wash your face, to take a second to get back into your body. It doesn't have to be a latte or a manicure or a face mask or a massage. There are these other means of refueling and renourishing that are also extremely important.

Zibby: It's more like baseline emotional regulation.

Alexandra: Exactly.

Zibby: It's getting back to basics. This is not an option. If you can't pull your emotions together enough to finish bath time, then you need to do something, versus screaming at the kids. I feel like so often those intense feelings, snapping -- even just loading the car up yesterday or whatever with all the kids and the dog and the bag and the this, I could feel myself snapping at everybody. I'm like, I'm losing my patience. Why? Where do we have to go so badly? We were just going home.

Alexandra: It's a balancing act. It's hard. It's not easy. It's not pretty. I know Instagram makes self-care look so beautiful, but it's really the nitty-gritty is when you're deep in it.

Zibby: Tell me a little more about writing this book. Tell me about how long it took and where you wrote and your process and all of that.

Alexandra: It took me a year and a half, two years, to write this book. I was eight months pregnant with our youngest when I turned in my manuscript. I remember my editor saying, "We will try to give you some time so you can be in postpartum." I was like, "I'm putting a boundary. After I have this baby, y'all cannot email me for like a month." It's just funny. We laugh about it. Not only was I writing this book, I was growing a baby. I was giving birth to two things simultaneously. I did a lot of writing here at home. I also had to get through. I kind of got stuck in the middle. It was really hard. My husband was home with our two. I went to a hotel, back when you could do those things, not in COVID. I went for a weekend. I just knocked it out. I remember feeling really, really accomplished that I was able to do that in a quiet place, in an unrushed place. Writing a book from home is really hard when you have kids. Our middle child, she was still very little. My two youngest are twenty months apart. It was very intense. I needed that time. To be able to go and finish in peace and in quiet was really amazing. It took a while. Then once I was in flow, it was just like, boom, here it is. Then by eight months pregnant, I was ready to turn in the manuscript. It was great after that.

Zibby: Wow. I love how you sprinkled in quotes. It's such a great book, inspirational. Even if you don't have time to sit and read every single word, your quotes, even just getting a quick dose every time you open it is just fabulous. And a great cover, which always helps everything.

Alexandra: Thank you for that. Isn't it beautiful? I love it.

Zibby: It's beautiful.

Alexandra: They did so good. It's so beautiful.

Zibby: It really is.

Alexandra: Funny story about the cover. We went back and forth on the cover, oh, my gosh. We finally got it to where everyone was like, "You know, I think the first one that we looked at was the one." It's just hilarious, the things you have to go through when the manuscript is done. You still have to get the little things together like the cover. Where is the gold foiling going to go? Is it going to be debossed or embossed? and all those things. Then you get it. It's like, oh, it was worth it. The one we first started with was the one that we ended up going with after like twenty other mockups later.

Zibby: Your first books, you self-published. Now you're in the traditional publishing world.

Alexandra: My first two books, I self-published. Then I was with a different smaller publishing house for Neon Soul and Today I Affirm. Neon Soul was a collection of poetry. Today I Affirm is a journal. Then I got picked up by Chronicle for this, for After the Rain and then a partner journal that's coming out. It's called Encourage. It's really amazing. Being self-published at first was definitely wonderful. I learned so much. I was able to build my audience and build my readership in a really authentic way. I'm four years into the traditional publishing world. I really love who I landed with for After the Rain. Chronicle is just -- they're wonderful.

Zibby: That's great. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

Alexandra: Write the story. Just write. I tell this all the time to the folks in my journaling courses and who come to my workshops. Just write the story. Just put it on the page. Everything else will fall into place. Something that really supported me when I first got into publishing my work eight years ago was a friend told me, "Stop hoarding your story. You never know who's going to need your story." I remember thinking, no way. She was like, "Yes way. Just put it on the page." Since then, I keep that at the forefront of my mind, especially when I'm sharing things that are intertwined with adversity and uncertainty because we never know who needs our story and who will benefit from it. We're never alone in our struggles. I think that that's really important to center in our work.

Zibby: I'm literally writing it on a sticky to put on my computer right now. You never know who needs our story. I love that. I'm putting it right here next to you. That's great. Alex, thank you. Thank you for using your precious naptime moments to chat with me today. Thank you for your lovely, soulful book that I'm sure will help countless people out there. Thanks.

Alexandra: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Zibby: My pleasure. Take care. Buh-bye.

Alexandra: Bye.

Jamie Lee Curtis, LETTERS FROM CAMP

Zibby Owens: Welcome, Jamie. Thank you so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." This is such a treat.

Jamie Lee Curtis: Apparently, you do because there are a lot of books behind you. There are a lot of rainbow-organized books behind you.

Zibby: Yes. I try to make time and share what I can read with other people who might not have as much.

Jamie: I understand. This is how we do it. We share with other people.

Zibby: You have contributed so much in so many different areas in the artistic world. Your latest endeavor is Letters from Camp, an Audible Original which came out this summer. I wanted to talk a little bit first about that. Tell me how the idea for an Audible Original came about and particularly this show.

Jamie: It's funny. It's such a wonderful story that the show was born from such a beautiful moment. I am the proud godmother of three New York-raised children. My friend Lisa Birnbach lives in New York. Her three children obviously live there with her and were educated in New York. I'm the godmother of all of them. My middle godchild, Boco, wrote me a letter from camp when she was twelve years old which she never sent. She wrote it and then put it in her shoebox of cards and then obviously didn't send it, had my name written on the outside of the envelope. In November of last year, I got a letter in the mail from Lisa. Inside that letter was the letter from Boco, unopened. I opened it up. It was a letter from a twelve-year-old saying, "Dear Godmother Jamie, I made a mistake. I got into trouble. I wish you were here because you would know what to do." I immediately called Boco who's twenty-six years old and a comedy writer here in Los Angeles. I said, "Boco, I got your letter from when you were twelve. It's fantastic. There's a TV show here." Originally, we were going to do it as a TV show. As we started talking about it, we found out that the Audible idea, doing a scripted podcast with characters and sound effects just like old radio plays -- they call it TV for your ears. It feels like a TV show, but it's Audible. They bought it and loved it. We made it this summer during COVID. Everybody was remote. It was written in about a month. Then we performed it. Then it was out August 4th. Crazy.

Zibby: Wow, that's the way to do it.

Jamie: It's a new world for me, the Audible world. Audible as a company has been fantastic as a partner to really understand that there are people who want content, who want things. This was just a wonderful -- it's super funny. It's charming. They have been fantastic partners, Audible, in the creation of it. The whole world of Audible, I didn't know about it. It's just been so fun. We had such a great cast. It's got songs in it that are like earworms that get in your head and then you can't get it out of your head. It's just been an absolute joy, crazy experience, and super fun.

Zibby: Amazing. When I was listening to the introductory theme song -- I spent many years at sleepaway camp. It just took me back to all that time on the bus and singing the camp songs and all the rest. Were you a sleepaway camp girl yourself?

Jamie: I was. As you can maybe tell, I like to compartmentalize. I like things to all work well. For me, trunks at camp were like your own fiefdom. I know some kids hated the idea of a trunk. They had to keep it clean. Everything was all messy. I loved it. I loved that you could roll your T-shirts and line them up. I loved the little soapbox. Remember there was a plastic soapbox?

Zibby: Yes. [laughs]

Jamie: I loved every aspect of camp. I loved lanyards. I loved the group activities. This show just spoke to my heart and made me remember how wonderful that experience is for people. Honestly, if people have the opportunity to go to camp, I think anybody who had that opportunity -- obviously, not everyone had that opportunity. The privileged people that were able to go to camp have that nostalgic feeling of creating a new version of yourself and learning who you are. I think that's the great benefit of camp.

Zibby: It's so true. Actually, my son is very into how his room looks. Now he's growing up. He's five. He's like, "I don't want to have a stepstool as my side table." [laughs] Literally yesterday, I was like, "You know what? I think I'm going to get you an old-fashioned camp trunk. I could put it here. You could store all your little treasures." Anyway, trunks have been on my mind.

Jamie: I'm sorry. You just said something about, your son is very specific about the way his room looks. I might ask you turn over your left shoulder and look at your bookcase.

Zibby: [laughs] I know. I see where it comes from. He's my only one of four who actually cares. There you go. Who knew? The fourth time. Letters from Camp is absolutely fantastic and a total throwback and fabulous to listen to. I also wanted to talk about your over a dozen children's books because I've been reading them with my kids. The oldest are thirteen. I've been reading them for years. I'm so impressed with the output and the content and the cleverness and the way you make different concepts from self-esteem to the alphabet to everything and being brave and all of it accessible and fun. Tell me about how you started writing children's books.

Jamie: Thank you, by the way. They are my best thing. They will be the best contribution I make to the universe besides raising my kids, for sure. I never thought I'd write a book. I barely got out of school. I am a well-educated uneducated woman. I spell so poorly. I count on my fingers. I did not receive schooling at all. It's a miracle that I survived my youth. I never thought I'd write a book. My four-year-old daughter walked into my office one day, apropos of nothing. I was sitting at a desk. She was down the hall. She came marching into my room. I remember she stood there and was delicious in her four-year-old-ness. She went, "When I was little, I wore diapers, but now I use a potty." Then she marched out of the room. I thought, oh, my goodness, that's amazing. I wrote down on a piece of paper in front of me, "When I Was Little: A Four-Year-Old's Memoir of Her Youth," which just made me laugh because she was talking about when she was little the way I talk about when I had long hair and wore it in a shag or when I wore bell bottoms. The good old days that I remember fondly, she was reminiscing about because she had a past even though I only looked at her having a future. She was so little. I never thought that she would look back. I only thought she would look forward.

When you have small children, you're only looking forward. School, shoes, clothes, food, school, clothes, shoes, food. You're only looking forward. Where are they going to go to grade school, high school, college? In the writing of that, I wrote down a list of things that she couldn't do and now she can do. I found that at the end of the list -- I wrote three things, and I started to cry. I realized it was a book. It was the last thing I thought I would do. All of a sudden, I was moved by it. I realized it was a book about self-discovery, about self-ownership. I realized it was a book for children. I sold it that day. I sent it via fax. Faxes were new then. That's how old I am. I remember sending it in curly-q paper to an agent in New York who was my mother-in-law's best friend. She sent it to HarperCollins, which was actually Harper Row back then. They bought it. Joanna Cotler, who was the head of children's books, bought the book. That began my career as an author. I had had a book that my daughter Annie loved, we loved, the way parents and children love books, called Annie Bananie. It was written by Leah Komaiko. It was illustrated by Laura Cornell. I said to Harper Row who had published Annie Bananie, "I would like Laura Cornell to draw the pictures." She and I have been partners since then for thirteen, fourteen books.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

Jamie: Last thing in the world I thought I'd do. Last thing in the world. I don't write them. They come to me. I wait for them. Then they pop into my head almost fully formed. I can barely get them down on the paper. That's how fast they come.

Zibby: Wow. Your most recent one, Me, Myselfie, & I, that was hilarious, the mom outside taking the selfies in the snow and all that.

Jamie: Obviously as I get older and the children get older, I'm no longer seeing the world from a young child's perspective. I'm seeing it from our perspective of how we relate to young people and the poison of social media and our self-obsession and our self-altering nature. Even here, I'm sitting here, I have a light over here. I have a light over here. If I didn't have those lights, it wouldn't be at all good. I will tell the truth on myself. I do it too. I don't alter photographs. I don't throw up a hundred filters and all of a sudden try to look like I'm not sixty-one years old. I think it's a poison. It was my way of talking about it. I knew if I had made it about kids doing it, nobody would've liked it because they would've felt that I was making a social statement about them. I think they would've been like, well, F off, just go away. Whereas by turning it on the mom, making the mom the one who's obsessed by it, who can't stop looking at herself -- the faces we make, it's crazy. It really was my think piece about self-obsession and the opposite of that, which is selflessness, which is what the world needs way more of. It was a little bit of a think piece.

Zibby: Love it. Speaking of the selflessness, tell me more about My Hands in Yours, which is your latest endeavor which, as you know, I just got very excited about myself.

Jamie: It's very sweet of you to support it. I am sixty-one years old. I am at that point in my life where my motto now is, if not now, when? If not me, who? What am I not doing to create love in the universe? How selfish is my life? I have always supported Children’s Hospital Los Angeles. For years, if you went through a bad thing or if a friend of mine went through a bad thing, I would either buy a little gift and I would send it. I'm a gift-giver. I like gifting. I would write on a card, "I'm so sorry to hear about your mother. I hope she recovers. Remember through it all, my hand in yours," is what I would say. It was a phrase that I put those four words together to say, I'm not with you, but imagine what it would feel like if you felt my hand in yours. That's what I want you to feel when I'm not there with you. I've been saying that for a long time. I've been collecting small sculptures by this artist named Anne Ricketts who makes little tiny beautiful feet that I love to send people and say, remember to be where your feet are. Meaning, get out of your head. Be right where you are in the moment. I've been buying and supporting Anne Ricketts for a long time.

I had this thought. What if we made a sculpture of two hands holding -- I don't know if you can see it. Here, let me get some light on it. Oh, my, look at me with my lighting skills. [laughter] It could fit in your palm. You could hold it like this. It would be two hands holding. I went to Anne and asked her if I could commission her to make them. I explained to her that I was going to donate a hundred percent of the sales to Children’s Hospital Los Angeles, which is an organization I've worked with. I was going to call it My Hand in Yours. I was going to create a marketplace for comfort items for people during times of crisis. This was last year when I thought I would start this project. I thought maybe it would be like an Instagram store or something. I didn't really know. Then the universe changed. COVID hit. All of a sudden, the need for contact with other people, the need to be able to send someone a gift and say, I am with you during this incredibly hard time, presented itself, and so I started a company. I never thought I'd start a company. I underwrote the company so that a hundred percent of the profits -- that means that Anne Ricketts donates all of her time, all of her artistry, all of her sculpting time, all of the preparation. Then they get sent to a foundry where they're produced. Then she makes sure that each one is perfect, polishes each one, bags each one.

All of that is done for free so that I can sell them and a hundred percent of that sale goes to Children’s Hospital Los Angeles. Everybody that has participated, Anne Ricketts -- my friend Cathy Waterman has created this fantastic hand charm. I don't know if you can see it. I will tell you, from product testing, I have reached up and grabbed that hand. There's something so tactile about holding this pendant as I go through my day. Cathy created that. That's on the website. I have now expanded the website. There are now medallions that you can buy. I wanted to make sure that there were things with different price points. The medallion is twelve dollars. For twelve dollars, you can have it sent to a loved one with a note from you. The money goes to Children’s Hospital. Then the sculptures, obviously, are more money, the pendant, blankets. Soon we're going to have candles. We're going to have beautiful objects. It's objects of comfort in times of crisis. A hundred percent goes to Children’s Hospital. All of a sudden, I have a store. I ship. I'm doing shipping every day. It's hilarious because I'm not that person, but yet I've become that person.

Zibby: I'll look for you at UPS.

Jamie: You will be receiving it at UPS or USPS. It depends what method you choose, or FedEx. You can choose all of the methodology to getting it to you.

Zibby: You might want to add some pictures of the scale of it, I was on the website earlier, like show it on a person.

Jamie: You mean of the pendant?

Zibby: Just to show how big or small they are. Maybe I did it in too much of a hurry. I didn't notice somebody wearing it. Anyway, I can check.

Jamie: I will do so. That's such a good idea. I will get on it. Let me get my people on it.

Zibby: You go. You do that. [laughs] Why did you pick Children's Hospital Los Angeles? Do you have a personal connection? Did something happen? Did you use it? Do you just think it's a great thing?

Jamie: I have been a supporter of Children's Hospitals throughout the country for a long time. It started when I was making a movie in Pontiac, Illinois. There was a charity put on by the town of Pontiac for a young woman named Lori Tull who was the very first successful heart transplant recipient as a child. She was thirteen years old. It was experimental surgery. The insurance company was not going to pay for it. The town of Pontiac put on a benefit. The movie I was making, we joined the benefit. She and I became friends. When she passed away at nineteen, I made a big donation to Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh, which was a fantastic institution at the front of that type of surgery, Dr. Starzl. Thomas Starzl is/was really a pioneer in transplant surgery. I worked with them for years. Then when I came back home every time, it felt weird that I would go to Pittsburgh and work on behalf of people in Illinois when in fact I live in California and I have one of the greatest institutions in Los Angeles. I literally just cold-called them one day and said, "Look, I'm doing this work for other places. I would like to start to support Children's Hospital Los Angeles." Then it ended up that they were doing bond initiatives to raise money, hospital bonds. I became the spokesperson and started doing the commercials for them. Then I've been involved with them since. They're just a fantastic organization. It's my hometown, born and raised here in the City of Angels. It was important to me that I give back to them. They get all of my support.

Zibby: I can just imagine the person who picked up the phone that day who was like, "Um, yeah, that’ll work that. We'll take that donation. Sure, get involved. Why not?" [laughs]

Jamie: For anybody watching this, you don't have to do big gestures. One the proudest things that ever happened in my life is that one of my best girlfriends, because of my involvement at Children's Hospital, decided to volunteer as a cuddler. A cuddler is for all of the premature babies who are in the NICU who do not have their parents or mother or father or grandparents with them. Volunteers are trained and then vetted. Then you go in and literally sit in a chair and they bring you these babies. You rock them and hold them and sing to them. One of my best girlfriends made that her commitment to Children's Hospital, no fanfare, no big TV ads, but hours and hours and hours of her day where she would hold these little babies. That's what I'm saying. To people watching and listening, we have to do something. We have to. As human beings, we are not here to look at ourselves on our phones. That is not the reason we're here. We're here to manifest our destiny as human beings and create a loving connection in the universe. That's why we're here. That's just why we're here. Whatever it is, you can do something.

This is a time in our nation, in the world, where we all have to be doing something. I don't care what it is. Look at what Bette Midler has done in New York City. Look at what Bette Midler has done with her parks projects, reclaiming these old disheveled pieces of property and turned them into local urban gardens and meeting places and transformed the city. That's just one person going, you know what, I'm going to do that, and all the volunteers and all the people that joined her. That's what we can do. I hope that's what we teach our children to do because if we're not teaching them that, it's over. Then it's just anarchy. Then the world will blow up. I do believe that you can make a huge, huge difference in the lives of other people by suiting and showing up and trying to help people. If anybody takes away anything from this besides I do a lot of hand motions, then that would be a good thing. [laughter]

Zibby: This could actually be part of your My Hand In Yours.

Jamie: I'm going to tell you a quick little story. I've been texting with a person about the picture on the chain. Let me just finish that. This is what we call multitasking.

Zibby: I love it. I make a suggestion, it gets implemented during the podcast.

Jamie: Immediately. It should be up on the website before we're done. Here's a funny thing. When I was doing Activia yogurt commercials for a very long time, there were hand gestures that we had to use to demonstrate what the product was helping to achieve. I literally had training to learn how to go like this, where you go like this. It's truth in advertising. Again, it's not a laxative. It's a probiotic, but it's supposed to help you poop better. I had the training where I did this, but then there was all sorts of kerfuffling about what does this really mean? If you go back and look at those commercials -- which I loved doing, by the way. The fun part of it was actually meeting people. The second wave of the hand gesture was, we couldn't do this anymore, so we had to talk about how it made you feel better. The new gesture was this. [laughter] It was like, when you take this product, you feel lighter and better. I had training in that too. There is a commercial where I'm walking along talking, talking, talking, and then I go like this. Anyway, hand gestures.

Zibby: Behind the scenes of the yogurt. Who knew? My daughter would not forgive me if I didn't ask you at least one question about Freaky Friday, which is her favorite movie. I just have to ask something. I don't even have a question. How was it filming that movie? Are you going to be doing any more movies, or are you now firmly in the children's book, might come again, we might do another Audible Original? What's coming next? That was a lot of questions.

Jamie: That was like twenty-five questions in one.

Zibby: Sorry about that. Pick one.

Jamie: It's all right. Watch this weave of answers.

Zibby: I'm ready. [laughs]

Jamie: I'd still make movies. I just had a Halloween movie. I was in that movie Knives Out last year. We have another Halloween movie to shot. I may go off and make another movie. Yes, I'm in the movie business. I'm in the TV business as I have, now, a company that is trying to produce our own work, part of which is the Letters from Camp podcast, which I believe, fingers crossed, that we will make more of. It was always conceived as a three-summer show. We wanted to avoid teenagers because mean girls are --

Zibby: -- Don't we all?

Jamie: Yes, we want to avoid teenagers, so we wanted to set a show in the summer of Mookie Hooper's twelfth, thirteen, and fourteenth year. We're hoping that that happens. Lastly, I loved Freaky Friday. It was a surprise for me. I was in the middle of a book tour. I had a fifteen-year-old daughter of my own and a five-year-old son. An actress pulled out of the movie. I stepped on a moving train, honestly. In three days, I was now pretending to be fifteen and fifty all at the same time. It was fantastic. I think the reason why it's so good and why it was such a pleasure for me is that I had zero time to prepare for it, zero. On a scale of zero to a hundred, zero, honestly. Three days later, I was shooting. Because of that, I had to just go, okay, whatever, how old am I? Just immediately release my ego and be fifteen. I was living with a fifteen-year-old. I knew many fifteen-year-olds, and so it was very easy for me to do. I think if I'd had a lot of time, I might have gotten very self-conscious about it. In that sense, it was the freest I've ever been in my life. Just was like, okay, what am I doing today? Okay. Because of that, I think it was so successful. I was having the time of my life.

Zibby: Amazing. I love that. You can tell. It's so fun. It was amazing.

Jamie: Because of that movie, I will actually have put into the world of parenting, a phrase that I ad-libbed, which is not my skill. I am not an improvisor. I did improvise because I was living with a fifteen-year-old of my own, shooting at the Palisades High School. My first day of work was at Pali High very near from where I live. When the mom drops her daughter off and the daughter gets out of the car and the mom leans out the window and says "Make good choices" out loud while all of the kids are around her, it may be my proudest moment. It certainly is going to be my legacy from that movie. "Make good choices" will outlive me, I think.

Zibby: If I were going to make a title for this podcast, that would be it. That's all of what you've talked about, in life, in literature, in Audibles, and everything, giving back. It's all about that.

Jamie: It's also about, life is for living. We are here such a short time. The older you get, the time gets shorter. It's time to really focus on making your moment count, whatever it is, be it planting a seed in one of those gardens, be it holding one of those babies at Children's Hospital where nobody is going to be -- it's not a glitzy gig. You're not going to get a bunch of kudos. You're going to feel it inside you. The more I'm a public figure, the more I understand that all of the outside attention, and I get a lot of attention, means honestly nothing. Self-esteem comes doing esteem-able things. That's why it happens. You don't get self-esteem because you get a million followers on Instagram. You get self-esteem because you buy groceries for your elderly neighbor and you don't even tell them it's you. You leave them a beautiful planted dahlia on your neighbor's porch without a note. That's how you get self-esteem. You get it from doing things for other human beings. I hope that we can all live that way until we're not here anymore. That's actually my raison d'être, my reason for doing it all. It's all boiled down to that. I'm really happy to meet you. I hope next time you're in California, you'll let me know. We'll social distance walk or something.

Zibby: I would love that. That sounds great.

Jamie: Cool. Thank you for having me.

Zibby: Of course. Thanks for joining me.

Jamie: Of course. Thank you.

Zibby: I won't tell your neighbor about the dahlias. I'll keep it our little secret.  

Jamie: Perfect. Thanks, everybody. Be well. stay safe. Bye.

Zibby: Bye.

Shelli Johannes on body image

Zibby Owens: My first guest is Shelli Johannes who is the coauthor of the very popular best-selling children's books Cece Loves Science and Libby Loves Science. She is just a rockstar. I recently had her on my other podcast. She has been posting lots of comments and interesting stuff in the moms' group. I wanted to hear her story. This is my first episode. This podcast will undoubtedly morph over time and potentially include more experts or more whatever. Right now, I just want to hear from other women, other moms, other people who are going through the same stuff and hear about everybody's journeys. Bear with me. I'm going to fine-tune this as we go. I hope you enjoy this conversation I just had with Shelli, who is amazing. Hopefully, it'll make you all feel a little bit less punitive and less hard on yourselves when you hear some of her advice and her story. Enjoy it. Please offer any feedback. I'm at zibby@zibbyowens.com, or you can DM me @MomsDon'tHaveTimeToLoseWeight. I hope to hear your feedback. Enjoy.

Welcome, Shelli. I can't wait to talk to you on "Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight."

Shelli Johannes: Nice to see you.

Zibby: Thanks for being, first of all, my first guest on this podcast and second of all, my first guest on both podcasts. It's pretty awesome.

Shelli: I've already made a record. I didn't even know it.

Zibby: You've already made a record. It's not even noon. This is great. [laughs] The point of this podcast is just to hear stories from other people that people can relate to. We all go through very similar struggles with our bodies, but in different ways and different forms. I just wanted to hear about your journey. I know that's a really, really broad question. I just want to have you take me through some of the highs and lows and see what we can learn and share and benefit from.

Shelli: The reason I joined your group is because -- I've never really joined a group before, but when it was moms who don't have time lose weight, I just felt like it would be a larger community of people that had tons of different stories. It wasn't a Weight Watchers group. It wasn't a SlimFast group or a very specific -- the women who get up and do the five AM workouts, I tried that group. Trying to find my people. I've always struggled with weight. I don't even know it's just weight. I think it's more body image. It started very young. My mom was a beauty queen from Florida, very fit, very tall, very thin, and had a very specific body style. I remember when I was younger, I was a gymnast, and so my body style was very different, just muscular and bigger. Weight was a big issue, a big topic in my family. It really started there. I think it just stuck with me. It's always stuck with me. Do you need to eat that? The slight comments, some more derogatory, but a lot of times just those little slight comments that you just don't think kids will hear, maybe. Do you need to eat that? Do you need three cookies instead of two? Haven't you already eaten enough today?

Zibby: Wait, is this the voice in your head, or is this you talking to your actual children?

Shelli: These are not me talking to my children. These are my parents talking to me, so when I was younger. I think that voice, we get those voices in our head which are just people who have made impressions on us, has always stuck with me. Do I need to eat that? Am I thin enough? Am I good enough? Am I fit enough? That's really where it started, was super, super young. I remember being in high school, and I was never the thinnest one. I was always the bigger one of my friends. I remember the first time doing the weigh-in. They do those at school, the nutrition weigh-ins. I remember everyone afterwards talking about their weight. I was embarrassed because my weight was higher because I'm more muscular. I just felt, oh, my gosh, if I weigh X amount and they weigh twenty pounds less than me, I must be fat. I remember that's where it started, really a lot in my teen years, my mom putting me on Weight Watchers when I was fifteen. Then I think we moved to Atkins diet after that. Then I think we moved to South Beach Diet after that. I could never find something that worked for me. It kind of got me on this fad diet roll. That's really where it started. I've always been someone who worked out. That has benefitted me as I've gotten older because I'm a little bit obsessive about working out. I think that was because I was always trying to lose weight and always trying to count my points and always trying to count my calories and making sure that I burned off enough. Then when I got into college, it kind of took a downward spiral where I went on a Jell-O diet.

Zibby: Wait, what was the Jell-O diet?

Shelli: All you ate was Jell-O for a week.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, I missed that one, but I got all the other ones.

Shelli: Unhealthy. This was in the nineties when that whole fad diet things were coming into play. Then I went on the pineapple diet. I don't eat pineapple now. I had sores down my throat. I just went down this really bad path. I don't think it was a path anybody sent me on. I think it was just messages that had somehow gotten on the wrong track. That's really where it started.

Zibby: Then what happened throughout college? What happened after? Did you stop the fad diets, or when you started working, or what?

Shelli: I went on the fad diets. I remember going on the Jell-O diet. This is kind of embarrassing. I'm kind of sticking myself out there. I went on the Jell-O diet, and I lost a lot of weight. I was like, finally, I found a diet that works for me.

Zibby: Starvation. [laughter]

Shelli: And sugar. That's what kept me going throughout the day. I have tons of energy.

Zibby: There's water in Jell-O, right? [laughs]

Shelli: Right, no calories to count. I know, it's horrible. I look back on my teen and college self and feel bad because I wasn't over, over, overly weight. I wasn't having any health problems. When I saw myself in the mirror, I looked big. I did go through a bulimic stage in college. I don't remember what pulled me out of it. I think I remember my mom and dad coming up for a game at UGA and my mom looking at me and saying, "Are you eating? You look way too thin." That was the conversation. You look great. You look thin. You look like you've lost weight. You look like you've been working out. I think that still goes on in my family. You look great. How are you keeping weight off during the pandemic? You look good. I don't even know if they're really aware of it, but I was. That didn't last long because, I'm not making a joke of this, I really don't like to throw up. After my mom's comment and then just the process I had to go through, I couldn't do it. I don't know how I pulled out of it. I think it's always been there. It always sits in the back of my head.

Zibby: Now fast-forward to here. What's been going on since? I feel like having kids is then another huge time where our bodies are like -- you have to focus on them because they're changing so much.

Shelli: And you're weighing all the time. Your weight's going up. I remember when I was pregnant. I was probably about maybe five to ten pounds away from my husband's weight. I remember thinking, oh, my god, I cannot weigh as much as my husband.

Zibby: Oh, my god, I had the same thought, FYI. Same thing.

Shelli: They were like, "We're going to take your baby two weeks early." I remember thinking, yes, that means I don't have to weigh in. I will not make his weight. That was a thought that went through my mind, which is so embarrassing that that is the first -- it wasn't like, is my baby going to be okay? What's a C-section going to be like? It was, yes, I'm not going to gain that extra five pounds in this last two weeks. I'm going to make it. I'm going to skim by under the weight of my husband. That was really hard. I came back after the first one because I do work out. The second one, I didn't come back. I think I mentioned to you that I have a nerve disorder, and so I started taking medicine. It keeps weight on. I couldn't get back. It was very frustrating. I still am kind of there. I still struggle. I was just talking to Kim this morning about coming on your web page. I was like, "What do you hear me talk about from weight as a friend?" She said, "I just think you're always trying. If you go do really well --" I'll go off my medicine and I'll do really well, and then I'll need my medicine, obviously. Then I'll put weight back on. I'll kind of beat myself up about it.

I joined yours to be like, you know what, this is a time for me to just focus on, I need to love myself. I just turned fifty. I had weight goals for when I turned fifty that I didn't meet. I always said, when I turn forty, I'm going to be this. When I turn fifty, I'm going to be this. That was hard because I'm a very goal-oriented person. If I set a goal, I will kill myself to make it. It will almost be to my detriment. Like we were talking about, if I say I'm going to do something, I will do it, and I will do it now. I don't succeed until I meet that. It's a really tough journey to learn how to love yourself and look in the mirror and see yourself for who you are and not have it be a weight number. It's how you feel. Other people will say, "You don't need to lose weight." I'll say, "I carry my weight really well. It's probably these jeans." I will offset it because I'm like, they don't really know what's behind this. They don't see me the way I see myself.

Zibby: I feel like I'm carrying this secret shame of the actual number. If anyone knew, oh, my gosh. I figured out how to dress for it. Maybe I could hide it enough. The thing is, here you are, you're a best-selling author, so accomplished in so many ways. I keep hearing you say about how your body is so athletic. That should be celebrated. You gain weight because of medicine. Even though you have the answers right there of why, perhaps, you're not like the other girls, it's hard to intellectually process that. One of my daughters is super athletic, gymnastics or whatever. I look at her, I'm like, I hope she never has an issue with this beautiful athletic body of hers because it's not stick -- I don't know.

Shelli: I think media and society, that's what's pushed. That's what's celebrated, is those sickly models that are so thin. You're seeing them on the camera. Being a mom -- my daughter is sixteen. She was a soccer player. When she got to be about maybe ten and started being a little more concerned about weight, twelve -- she was a soccer player, and they had to a run a certain amount. They never weighed them, but they definitely had to be in shape. I hid my weight scale. She was always like, "Do you have a scale?" I was like, "I do not have a scale. I don't keep a scale around. It's not about the number. It's about how you feel." I was like, I have to change this message for my daughter because I don't want to repeat the same mistakes. I think sometimes we say things to our kids and we don't realize the message we send is not the message they take in. That's scary to me. That was why we started the books, the same reason. From a weight perspective, I didn't want her to get so focused on a number. Of course now, she's like, "We need a scale." I'm like, "It's not about a number. It's about how you feel. How do you feel today? Do you feel healthy? Do you feel unhealthy?" She's like, "Well, I have been eating a lot of sugar." I'm like, "You probably don't feel healthy, but you're beautiful. Everybody has different body styles." I see her going through the same thing. She'll be like, "But she's a size two. She's small." She's a size six. I'm like, "Honey, you're a size six. Don't look at magazines. You have to go by how you feel. You can't get so caught up in what people are telling you you're supposed to be that you lose sight of who you are." It's scary.

Zibby: It's so true. I feel like sometimes I just need to listen to the things I'm saying to my kids. I was so afraid of saying the wrong things that I've been only body-positive around the kids. I was like, I am not going to do any of this. I've read all these articles. I'm never saying I feel fat or this. I have pain in my body right now, and I would like to eat better for the inflammation, basically, but I can't let them hear me say all that stuff. It's so corrosive. I think our generation, our moms -- my mom had me on diets like you. She took me to some diet center. What I wouldn't do for that body, by the way, back.

Shelli: Oh, yes.

Zibby: There was nothing wrong with my body, seriously. Anyway, whatever. That was the culture.

Shelli: I look at pictures and I'm like, what was I thinking? I look at the pictures. What was I thinking about myself? Why was I so hard on myself?

Zibby: You know, it's funny because that also follows you. I remember a vacation I took maybe five years ago and being in my bathing suit with the kids in the water and being self-conscious. Are people watching me as I wade in here with my kids all climbing all over me? I had this thought at that time, wait a minute, maybe one day this is the body that I'll wish I had. Now I do. [laughs] You always are thinking things could be better. Yet life changes. There are extenuating circumstances like your medicine which is so much more important, getting rid of pain.

Shelli: I will try and get off of it. My husband will be like, "You look beautiful." I'll say, "I'm trying to find that line between looking old and -- I don't want to be old and too thin, but I don't want to be fat." That is what I go through. I'm like, there's a fine line. I need to find that line, so maybe I don't need three a day. Maybe I could do two a day. It's almost like the stages of grief. It's like I'm in negotiation constantly now. Maybe if I do this. Maybe I could do this. Maybe if I could do this. Then there's also that point -- how old are your daughters?

Zibby: I have a thirteen-year-old daughter and a seven-year-old daughter and then two sons.

Shelli: I knew you had four kids, but I wasn't the sure the age. My daughter now is sixteen. I found myself telling her more stories about my journey because I don't want her to feel like it's odd for her to think those things. I've said I've had a tough relationship with food and it really is about health so that if something ever does happen, she can come to me. I did go through the period where I never talked about weight. I never said the word fat. I never said the word weight. I always talked about healthy choices. Let's make healthy choices. These are fun choices for cupcakes. I even remember my very first book -- I know you've written a picture book, right? You've got one coming out?

Zibby: Yes.

Shelli: My very first book was when I was in fourth grade. It was about a fat, smart cookie. I'm in the process now of reworking that to be like, that would be really awesome if I could rewrite that book for myself. It was about a cookie who was constantly eating bad. Everyone was constantly telling her she was fat. That was in fourth grade. I won an award for that essay. I remember in fourth grade saying, oh, my gosh, even my weight won an award. I was rewarded for writing about weight. To me, it was really a sad story about this cookie that was too fat and always ate wrong and tried to do better and just couldn't. It’s funny how those things kind of bleed into even creative aspects that aren't bad.

Zibby: I wrote an essay when I was fourteen about how I felt about my body, I had gained some weight when my parents divorced, and how I felt like people were even treating me differently and how I felt about it. I ended up publishing it in Seventeen magazine. That started me writing freelance essays, essentially. By the way, now that I look back, I'm like, wow, how did I do that at fourteen when I look at what my kids are doing? [laughs] Anyway, it inspires so much artistic production, thought. It's such a waste, actually. Think about what else we could've accomplished. When we think about where we are now, and now here we are joining this group and trying to be there for each other -- again, that's why I did this. When I got all these comments, everyone had such different tips. There's no one-size-fits-all thing. Forget it.

Shelli: It's stories. I loved reading all those stories.

Zibby: Everybody had so many stories. I want to hear all the stories. What are your goals now? How can the group help?

Shelli: One goal is I'm trying not to focus on a number because I think I've been so overly focused on numbers my whole life to my detriment, to an unhealthy -- as you get older, I just turned fifty, and so you start realizing this is the only body am I ever going to have. I better celebrate this vessel and take care of it the best way that I can because I don't get another one. I don't think when you're younger you realize that. You don't realize what the fad diets and what the yo-yo diets, they would call them, or just the mental anguish of what that actually does to my body -- with my nerve thing, I really can't work out very hard. I just have started walking. I think I posted some of these in there. I'll just say, you know what, I don't feel like walking, but I'm just going to walk around the block. Then I'll listen to your podcast. I'll end up walking around thirty minutes for a podcast. Then I'll be like, yeah, I could probably watch one more. I ended up, just started walking and walking and walking. Over the pandemic, I've lost a lot of weight. I think I told you I lost fifteen, but then I started the medicine back up. I've gained five. That was disappointing right before my fiftieth birthday, which was why I posted. Your post came right at that time where I was super vulnerable. I was like, yeah, and then this happened. Then I look back, I'm like, wasn't I just an open book? [laughs]

Zibby: I love it, though.

Shelli: I am trying to find a way to be healthy but still have the things that I love, which I think is why I told you I gravitate towards Weight Watchers. I just feel like when I get in those areas where I'm like, no, you can't do this and you can't eat this and you can't have this and it's past eight, I find I set myself up to fail. I never am successful when I do that. Now I'm trying to be like, okay, I can have the special gluten-free cinnamon bun, but I'm going to have to have a salad for lunch. My daughter ended up coming to me saying, "I don't feel healthy. I would like to figure out how to eat healthy." I showed her the Weight Watchers SmartPoint and was like, "This is not a diet. This is a way to acknowledge what you're putting in your body and make choices and see what the choice gives you. If you come out and you want a granola bar --" She'll say, "It's got too much sugar. It's six points. I think I'm going to have an apple and a string cheese." I've tried to teach her, but that's been hard for me because I don't want to send the message that she needs to lose weight and that she needs to go on a diet.

Now I'm trying to focus on getting ready for her to go off to college and making those healthy choices so that if she doesn't feel healthy and doesn't feel good that she can say, well, I am having Lucky Charms every morning. Maybe I should have an omelet and a piece of cinnamon toast. That's half the points of what Lucky Charms would be. That's a struggle when you have a sixteen-year-old, is to figure out, how do you teach them how to eat healthy without talking about weight and exercise and how you feel? What are the good choices? What are the bad choices? Why are they bad? You can't just say, it's got sugar. The way I can say is, these two granola points are ten points. This caramel rice cake with a string cheese is two points. It's healthier. It's rice. It doesn't have as much sugar. I really struggle with that. When you said moms who try to lose weight, I thought that maybe some moms would also have tips for, how do you get your kids on the right path? How do you teach your sons to work out when they're super thin? His doctor's like, "You need to put on weight." In my mind, I was like, oh, god, don't tell him that.

Zibby: How old is your son?

Shelli: He's thirteen. He's in that space where they're like, you need to put on weight. You need to get some fat in your body. You need to do this. I'm trying to teach him different skills like, what's good fat? What's bad fat? You have to work out. His metabolism's so high. He can't put on weight. It's hard. It is hard being a mom when you're looking from your lens out that isn't a healthy lens and trying to teach a healthy lens.

Zibby: How do you actually eat? What's a go-to meal for you? I know you've referenced some of the points meals and stuff. What's your general eating? Then what's your biggest downfall?

Shelli: My biggest downfall is cheese. That's my biggest downfall. I try to eat eggs in the morning. I love cheese, so I use the cheese as my points. I sometimes eat cheese in the afternoon, but I'll have a salad with some cheese or vegetables with some cheese. If I cut out cheese, I'm just not happy. [laughs] My creamer in my coffee, I will not stop my coffee creamer. It just makes me happy. I like the Delight White Chocolate Raspberry. We stock up on it every Christmas because it only comes out for a couple months. I'm like, two points a tablespoon, I just measure it, and I'll take it. It helps. It's not about the points. I think it helps me be very conscious and aware of what I'm putting in my body because I know that the higher the points, the higher the carbs, the higher the sugar, and the lower the points -- if I have string cheese and a pickle, that's still cheese to me. I can't buy those big logs of cheese. I will eat the whole log. I could probably eat it in a day if I didn't pay attention, just slicing them and your slices get bigger and bigger and bigger. I have to buy the ones that are either sliced or that are individual.

Zibby: That's like me with banana bread. I'm like, I'll just make a slice here in the thing. Then next thing you know, it's like half the thing is gone.

Shelli: Two-inch slice.

Zibby: Yeah, exactly.

Shelli: You're like, one slice of banana bread is only... But I've had three slices in just one.

Zibby: It sounds like some goals and things to look forward to are maybe just getting rid of the scale entirely. Maybe you don't even need it in the family, or just shoving it away for a while. Focusing on the amazingness of your athleticism and that your body was built for more than just being a scrawny model, and that that's a good thing. That's a blessing. Not that saying this for the millionth time will do anything, but just to keep in the back of your head. Counting points. Those are already lots of goals. Keeping walking.

Shelli: That's what I'm trying to do. I'm keeping walking. This last weekend, I went with my daughter, we had a mom-daughter trip. We ended up doing a lot of, I think I mentioned it on one of the posts, we ended up doing horseback riding, which was mountainous and rugged. We ended up doing ziplining and hiking Tallulah Gorge. I have not been able to walk since. I did too much. I remember going to Tallulah Gorge going, "We could go down the suspension bridge." My daughter was like, "Are you sure we could do that?" I was like, "Yes, we can do that." Then I got down. Then I was like, oh, we got to go back up. [laughs] That wasn't smart. I kind of overfatigued my muscles. Then I end up laying down for three days being upset because I'm not walking and beating myself up because I should be walking, but I'm trying to take care of myself and let my body heal from the overexert-ness of a weekend. Then I eat because I'm not walking. I find when I walk, I just get outside and get that energy outside, get out of my small world, which is hard right now in the pandemic because we do live in small worlds. My refrigerator is there all day long. I'm not busy and in the car saying, I'm hungry, but I didn't bring a snack with me, or I only have a banana. Now it's just staring at the refrigerator waiting until, is it snack time? Is it snack time yet?

Zibby: You're like, lunch? Is it lunch yet? When's my feeding time? I'm like a child or something. What would you say to yourself? You're going to have bad days coming up. You're going to have great days coming up. To be more forgiving, what would you want to say? What do you want to remember? Maybe if you replay this or you're having a period of feeling very vulnerable or bad about yourself, what would you want to remember that's really important, like a don't-miss-the-plot kind of message to yourself?

Shelli: I try to talk to myself the way I would talk to my kids. I'll hear myself something. I'll be like, I would never say that to my daughter. Why would I say that to me? I would never say, get off your ass and go work out even though you're in pain. I would be like, you have to listen to your body. Your body is telling you that it can't do that today. Embrace your body. Love your body. Know that you can do that tomorrow. I try to think about now, a little bit more consciously, what would I say to my daughter? If I wouldn't say it to my daughter, then why would I say it to myself?

Zibby: I love that.

Shelli: That helps me because I will get in my head and be like, you only lost a pound. You only did that. Why would you do this? I would never ever say that to my kids. We almost have to retrain that message. We almost have to change those messages that have somehow gotten wired in our heads, that inner voice that is just like, get off your ass. You got to work hard. Work harder. You said you were going to do this. How come you're not doing it? Change it to be a little bit more nurturing and be like, I'm doing the best I can. I did great yesterday. Today's been a bad day. Tomorrow's a new day. It's a hard one, though. I struggle with that question every day.

Zibby: I love your advice. That's advice that could help me, talk to myself like I would talk to my child, talk to myself internally like I would talk to -- we seem to treat ourselves with so much less care than all the people we take care of all the time.

Shelli: Oh, my gosh, I'm so cruel to myself. I feel bad for myself sometimes.

Zibby: Sometimes when I hear my daughter being down on herself, I'll be like, "Hey, that's my daughter you're talking about there." I have to stick up for her being rude to her. "I don't want to hear you being mean to yourself. That's someone I care about there. Stop it."

Shelli: Right, I like that. I like how you're making it the third-person situation, say, hey you, little mister, [indiscernible]. Internal family systems is some kind of therapy that I've read about in the past about how all your different voices in your head -- I have those voices in my head. I have the lady who's just like, your nerve problem, and this and that. She's a hypochondriac and always worried about her nerves. Then I have the person who's like, you're not doing enough. Got to get out and get busy. I'm trying to put those voices -- I think Elizabeth Gilbert talks a lot about that in her Magic book. Put those voices in the backseat. They're the two-year-olds. We don't need to hear from those voices. Bring the other voices that are more positive and nurturing and loving, let them sit in the front.

Zibby: I love it.

Shelli: Those other whack-a-dos in the back, they shouldn't be driving.

Zibby: Right, so just be kinder to ourselves and speak to ourselves the way we'd want anybody else to speak to us. Not to say that's going to help. I know this has been more of just catching up, us talking about our struggles, but I think it's all relatable. So many people wish they had a different body and structurally, they don't. It's kind of a shame now that I'm in my forties when I think about the body types I longed for before. Why? Why is that necessarily any better? I don't know. Anyway, this is also a much bigger conversation. All to say it's a blend of self-acceptance and yet working hard to keep our bodies functioning at their best which sometimes means not having all the extra stuff and staying active and somehow [indiscernible/crosstalk].

Shelli: And maybe realizing what those triggers are. When you posted, it was very intimate. Something triggered that all of a sudden. We have these feelings, and then something will kind of weigh us down. What was that for you?

Zibby: When I posed that I wanted to eat everything in my kitchen?

Shelli: Yeah.

Zibby: I don't think I explained the whole reason. I had just heard some really bad news. I had had such a long day. I was just so sick of being careful and having to focus on this. I was just like, ugh, I don't want to do it anymore. [laughs] Then the group helped so much because I got all these tips. I went out for a walk with the dog. I waited five minutes. I chewed gum. I did all these things. Then next thing you know, the craving passed. I handled it another way, and I lived. I think it's also habit breaking. Anyway, there's a lot. I'm just so happy you shared your story. Thank you for being so open and your advice. I hope the group helps. I hope you continue to keep posting all your stuff because it's so great.

Shelli: Thank you for starting it. Thank you for having me on here. When you said, "Let's kick it off," I was thinking, really? I don't know if I'm the expert to talk or person to talk about...

Zibby: I didn't want to start with an expert. I just wanted to be real. It's just one woman to another. We're in it together.

Shelli: That's why your podcasts are so great. It's amongst moms and women to women. I'm also looking for tips on, how do we raise our kids in a healthy environment with positive messages?

Zibby: Yes, me too, so that I don't mess them up. [laughs] Thanks, Shelli. This was fun. Now I'll be thinking of you as I go about my eating today. It's nice just to have a partner in crime, if you will.

Shelli: I totally get it.

Zibby: Face to a name and all the rest. Thanks for coming on.

Shelli: Good to see you today.

Zibby: Bye, Shelli. Thanks.

Shelli: Bye.

Deborah Tannen, FINDING MY FATHER

Zibby Owens: Thanks for coming on my show. I'm excited to talk about your latest book. Would you mind telling listeners what Finding My Father is about? Although, I'll just read the subtitle, and that gives a clue. His Century-Long Journey from World War I Warsaw and My Quest to Follow. Tell us more about the book. What inspired you to write it? Although, you include that in there, so just tell everybody else.

Deborah Tannen: My father was born in a Hasidic household in Warsaw in 1908 and came to the United States when he was twelve. He lived to be ninety-eight. He died two weeks before his ninety-eighth birthday. He, after he retired, was almost obsessed with talking about his past, especially his childhood in Warsaw which he remembered in astonishing detail, but his entire life, really. I would trace two things about this to my wanting to write this book. One is the very personal reason. The other is the broader perspective. The personal reason is that when I was a child, I adored my father. He was the parent that I felt connected to. I felt he understood me. I could ask him anything. He would answer with patience and precision. He loved words and language, as I did. I felt like if I said something to him, he would understand it the way I meant it, whereas my mother I felt often didn't or might get annoyed by what I was saying. But he was absent more than he was present. The way I put it in the introduction is the strongest presence that I felt in the house was his absence. I felt like I was spending my days with my mother missing my father. That really went on pretty much into adulthood. We can talk later about his work life, which is a saga in itself. He was gone far more than he was there. I think that was often true of parents at the time. It was mostly fathers. Now it could be fathers and mothers.

After he retired, his wanting to spend all this time talking about his past meant that if I talked to him about his past, I could spend time with him. I'm kind of a workaholic. Once I decided that I was going to write a book about him, I could spend hours talking to him during the day which I otherwise would never do. I recorded our conversations. Once he realized that I was doing this, he encouraged it. In fact, I found notes in which -- I should say, he saved every piece of paper that came into his life. He left me many, many, many different kinds of documents and letters and notes and memories that he wrote for me. Once he began doing that, I had more and more material that I felt gave me a perspective on the entire century. His life really is like a walking tour through history. He lived in this World War I Jewish community of Warsaw, Hasidic community, before, during, and after World War I. He really captured that community. In the beginning, my thought about the book -- and his too because I have a copy of a letter he wrote to someone back in the early eighties, "Deborah is going to write a book about the Jewish community of Warsaw based on my memories." I was thinking of it that way. Then I realized his entire life reflected these different cataclysmic events of that century.

The Bolshevik Revolution, which had a tremendous effect on his mother's siblings, especially her younger siblings whom he lived with because he had no father -- he was living in his mother's nuclear family, which was grandfather, grandmother, and many, many aunts and uncles, nine that were living there when he was there. I can name fourteen of them and what happened to them, tell you their life stories. A few of them, I do tell in the book. The younger ones were caught up in the Bolshevik Revolution and became passionate communists. The one who influenced him the most, the youngest of all those aunts and uncles, was only six years older than my father was and more like an older sister that he admired. By the time he came to the United States, he told me years later, he already was identified as a communist and an atheist, which he says happened to him, he converted, when he was six following his aunt around. Then his whole experience of work just captures one Jewish immigrant experience. He quit high school at fourteen, went to work in the garment district in New York as so many immigrants did, and yet managed to go to law school at night, become a lawyer. Then it was the Depression, that other cataclysmic event. There's something almost ironic or maybe appropriate, this book coming out in a pandemic, because the fact that he finished law school in the Depression made it impossible for him to then support -- he was the sole support of his mother and sister, having no father. Because of the Depression, he could not work as a lawyer.

When he was fifty, when I was in junior high, he did start to work as a lawyer and established a workmen's compensation firm -- at the time, we said workmen's; now we say workers -- which actually ended up being the largest workers' compensation firm in New York City, which means, he liked to point out, the largest in the world. He did so many different things before he could do that because of the Depression. I think many people today are suffering similar consequences. Their future is so changed and so much more challenging because of the economic situation. I'll make one last comment here. It's so much helped me understand the contrast between his way of looking at the world and his life and relationships between women and men. There's also drama about who he married and why he married my mother and not another woman he might have married. When my father sat down to write about his life, he began by listing all the jobs he had held. To him, that really captured his life. That was the summary of his life, the work that he did. When I thought about his life and when I think about my life, I begin with relationships: who was important in my life, who influenced me, who I loved, how those relationships developed. For him, it was work. I came to understand that, really, family and work were inextricably intertwined in his mind. Family meant obligation to support the people you loved. How you went about doing that was both a summary of his life and also proof of his devotion to the family. It was because of that love that he couldn't go to work as a lawyer and let his family starve or have a difficult time while he built up a practice.

Zibby: Wow. It's amazing because I feel like people in their fifties think it's too late. Somebody in their forties the other day said to me, "I got started. I thought it was too late to write a book." I'm thinking, no, no, no. Look at this. Your dad, even back then, launched a whole new career so late in life. Yet it was only half his life. He still had half to go. It's very encouraging and empowering to think that at any moment, just start following your dream. It's not too late.

Deborah: Yes. In his case, it was opportunity. The brief summary of how it all happened, he did all these different things during the Depression. Then there was a civil service exam he was taking, he said many, many civil service exams. There would be thousands of people taking an exam for a few jobs. Late in the Depression, things were starting to open up. He got the offer to be a prison guard in the federal penitentiary in Danbury, Connecticut, not the kind of job he thought he was going to consider, but he went, tried it out. He was very happy there. He loved the lifestyle that went along with it. He had always lived in cities, in Warsaw and then in New York City, always in apartments. For the first time, he lived in a house. There was a beautiful yard. Everybody who talked about it, talked about it with such longing when they were no longer there. Everyone in family -- that is, my father, my mother, my sister who was alive at the time, my oldest sister was a little girl at the time -- talked about the beautiful weeping willow tree in the backyard. He was doing very well at it. He was promoted to parole officer very quickly. Then he got an offer based on another exam he had taken, civil service exam, to be an alcohol tax inspector with the treasury department chasing bootleggers. It offered a bit more money. He felt he had to take it because it was all about doing what you had to do to support your family. When he told the warden that he was making this change, the warden was beside himself. "You are doing so well here. You are going to be a warden very soon, in a year." He thought that was ridiculous. He said, "No, there's no way that a Jew will be a warden. There are no Jewish wardens." The warden said, "That's because there were no Jews in the system. Now that there are, of course you'll be promoted."

He didn't believe it. He did not believe it was possible. He made the switch. It turned out that the person who was given his job as parole officer became a warden in a year. That person was Jewish. That realization that he could've had that comfortable life became especially upsetting to him because the job as alcohol tax inspector, the job was okay. He didn't love it. It was all right. The family had moved to Providence, Rhode Island, where nobody was happy. They had no communities they had had in Danbury. That word, Danbury, was like a garden of Eden I heard about my whole life, the wonderful life they had in Danbury, the miserable life they had in Providence. My mother became pregnant with me, so of course I always felt guilty about this, and they moved back to New York. She wanted to have the baby in New York. As a stopgap measure, he took a job in a factory as a cutter. It was supposed to be just a brief time while he became very active in politics. He was no longer a communist. He became disillusioned with communism in 1939 when Stalin made a pact with Hitler. He became active in New York Liberal Party, a party somewhat left of the democrats. He was promised a political appointment within a year. It took thirteen years. Each year was, next year, next election, after the election, wait for the election. That contrast of these thirteen years working in a factory when he could've been a warden and have a comfortable life and his family would've been happier, that always was a shadow over his life and over the family, though he did not give me the sense how much he disliked working in a factory. I did not sense that. He never allowed us to see how unhappy he was. He certainly talked about it after when we had all these conversations.

Zibby: How did it make you feel to hear about how he had been feeling and hiding all that time?

Deborah: I'm grateful to him for that. There was one anecdote he wrote about. He started writing his memories for me as well. There was one he described in something that he wrote. I guess he wrote it in his eighties, but then he retold it in his nineties when we talked face to face. After my mother died, he moved to an assisted living facility where we talked many, many, many hours. He remembered -- this is before he passed the exam and got the job in Danbury, so it was during the Depression -- having no job. He was, every day, looking for work. He always worked, but it would be temporary jobs trying to find something that would work out. He passed his mother sitting outside her apartment. He had supported his mother from the age of fourteen until he got married at the age of twenty-four, so ten years he was sole support. It turned out that she was putting money away all those years. He would keep out a small amount for himself for car fares. She would go through his pockets, if she found it, and take it. She was a piece of work. He passed his mother and asked her if she would lend him five dollars. She not only refused, but began berating him that he was a spendthrift, that he was irresponsible.

He wrote, "Even now when I think about it, I feel like crying." He felt so humiliated by this. I don't think it was so specifically about his mother. I'm sure that was part of it, but that having sacrificed so much to get a law degree, pass the bar -- he was lawyer. He should've been working as a lawyer. Here he was penniless. Then he wrote that he did manage to get a job the next day. He was able to borrow a small amount of money from the bank, which apparently was part of the way he kept things going, he said, "where I had an unblemished record." The thing about the way he wrote about it that really was so fascinating to me and so enlightening, he said he felt so terrible because his situation was financially so bad and he said, "the need to hide it from my family, that I felt that way." I realized, yeah, that's what he did. My first thirteen years of my life when he was working in a factory, he completely hid the negative feelings he had about that. I was shocked when I asked him in one of our conversations when he was ninety-seven. He was alert until the end. "How did you feel about working as a cutter?" He said, "I hated every minute of it." I had no suspicion.

Zibby: I wonder if this has informed all of your work on communication. That's such a central part of what you investigate, is how to ease that communication between all different types of people. Do you think it has something to do with that?

Deborah: Yes, absolutely, on two levels. People ask me, why did I write and how did I know how to write for general audiences? I was trained as an academic. And why did I want to? I always say, I wanted to write a book that my mother could read. Really, it's that I did grow up in that working-class background. My father's friends who were factory workers as he was, my mother's many siblings, some were what we would now call middle class. One person owned a small factory. Others worked in factories. I grew up talking to people who did not have a college education and even a high school education and would not have understood the way I talked to my academic colleagues. Also, really from my father, I got this perspective on language. After people left when we'd sit around and talk and gather, he was the one who would say, "Did you see how she said that and how her expression looked when she said it?" He would draw conclusions from the subtle, subtle wording. I had hired somebody before I began interviewing him. Hired someone somebody told me about that interviewed older people about their histories, about their past. I hired someone to interview both my parents. At one point, she asked my father about his grandfather. "How do you like to remember him?" He said, "Like it or not, I remember him as...," picking up the phrasing that she used. I was amused that he was kind of subtlety questioning it, criticizing it even. He had that sensitivity to language. I think I did pick that up from him.

One last comment about that that I'll tell you. Because he had been raised in this Hasidic background, he had been sent to what was called [indiscernible], the religious school, from the time he was four, all day until he was old enough to go [indiscernible]. Then he had tutors at night and went to secular school during the day. He had this training in Talmud from the time he was studying religious texts from the time he was very small. He hated it. He had so many stories about how much he hated losing his childhood to [indiscernible]. The teacher was cruel, as many of those teachers were. The first academic paper I published, I was still a graduate student, I sent it to my parents. My mother wouldn't read an academic paper, but my father would. He called me. He started by telling me how much he admired it. Then he started how, "The way you pull apart all the meaning of the words and look for the underlying meaning, that reminded me of how I was trained to study Talmud and how we had to look for the meanings." He started getting worked up remembering how much he hated all that. Finally, he got to one point and he said, "I don't know how you can stand it." We burst out laughing. Many linguists, by the way, are Jewish. I think that Talmudic tradition is probably a part of it.

Zibby: Interesting. You included in this book, why you did not write a book about your mother. You kind of poked fun at her gently and how she would talk. Can you speak a little more about your relationship with her?

Deborah: My mother tended to be very unhappy. She would take that out both on my father and on the kids, especially me because I was kind of difficult. I think I inherited some of that tendency to be unhappy, so I was not an easy kid. There was the fact that my mother didn't want a third child, which I always knew. My father did. Apparently, he talked her into leaving it to fate. After one night, she said, "No, I don't really want that," but it was too late. I always knew that. My mother was not contemplative or introspective. She didn't tend to take a step back and ask questions about the way the world is. She wasn't interested in talking about her past. Because I was recording all of these conversations, I actually captured it on tape. At that time, it was a cassette tape. Some of the conversations in the book are transcribed from actual conversations we had. She was often envious that I spent all this time talking to my father. She didn't like it when I was alone with him. She wanted the attention for herself.

One time, she came in and she said, "I'm going to have to think about my past." I said, "Yeah, I want to know about your past." I started asking her a question. I think it went something like, "Do you remember the house you grew up in?" "Yeah, sort of. We had a house." "Do you remember the furniture?" My father gave all these detailed descriptions. "Do you remember dinner?" "Dinner?" "Yeah. Do you remember what dinner was like?" "No. I know there was a table and a chair." "Did you have friends?" Again, my father had these stories about all the other kids he knew and their life stories. "I know I had friends." "Do you remember any particular friends?" "No." Then she would get impatient very quickly. She said, "We came to this country. We always had enough to eat. Really, nothing special. That's it."

Clearly, there's many ways that that's wonderful that she didn't get obsessed with the past. She was very impatient with my father being so obsessed with his past. Apparently, she made a rule in the house, no talking about dead people. [laughter] He always wanted to reminisce about his grandfather and his past. He made fun of himself for it. He said, "She's interested in the present. To me, it isn't real until it's past." I couldn't write a book about my mother because she didn't give me the material. My father gave me these mountains of words, journals that he kept, letters that he kept, notes that he kept, memories he wrote down for me. He learned to use a computer when he was seventy. He learned to use email when he was eighty. He was sending me these long letters that he typed and long emails, so much material to work with, too much in a way. That was part of what took me so long to write it. I do talk about my mother in the book. You're wearing that about mothers and daughters. I have a lot of anecdotes about her there.

Zibby: How long did this book take you to write?

Deborah: From one perspective, it took me forty years. I did write quite a few other books in between. I got quite serious about writing it in the mid-nineties. I actually proposed it to my publisher at that point. I said that I wanted to write a book about public discourse, The Argument Culture, and this book about my father. They said, "If you want to write The Argument Culture, then the other one has to be about relationships." They didn't want the book about my father. I said all right. I wrote The Argument Culture. Then I wrote a book called I Only Say This Because I Love You about adult family relationships. Then that had a book about mothers and daughters, a chapter that people liked very much, so I wrote the book about mothers and daughters. Then my mother passed away while I was writing that book, so that delayed that a bit. I was very close to my mother when she got older. The tensions were no longer there. Then somehow in the mid-nineties, I got quite serious, had all that material, had all those notes, but I did move away from the idea of actually writing it. I got more serious about it around 2012, '13. I had a year; I had a sabbatical. I did come out with a draft at that point, but didn't really start shaping it until a couple of years ago. Again, wrote another book in between, my book about friendship, I Only Say This Because I Love You. In a way, I needed that much distance from my father. It's now fourteen years since he passed away. I guess I was finally ready to bring it all together and shape it.

Zibby: Do you now feel a sense of closure now that it's come out into the world and it's done and it's here?

Deborah: Oh, yeah, understatement of the year. I'm so thrilled that I got it done, that it's published. I promised him I would write it. He was pleased that I was writing it. We talked about it. He sent me things with that in mind. "I hope you have a file for this. Keep these things together in a file." We were very lucky. As I said, he was really healthy until the end. There was just one week. He had a heart attack. He was in the hospital. He seemed to be recovering. Then he had a stroke. After the stroke, he wasn't responsive. The hospice people assured us he could hear. They said, "Talk to him about all the good times you had." I thought, I think I'll tell him what I think he would appreciate hearing. I said, "I promise you I will write the book about you." I'm glad I kept my promise.

Zibby: I'm glad you did too. That's really nice. That's so special. I'm glad you got to tell him. I sort of believe that people know on some level even if they're not with us, which sounds a little woo-woo. I do believe that it's out there and it's acknowledged in some way.

Deborah: I think I do too. Although clearly, he was an atheist, so he didn't literally believe in the afterlife. One of the conversations we had really stuck in my mind. This is when he was ninety-seven. We were talking about how long I would live and how I would like living that old. I said, "I guess I won't know until it happens." He said, "You'll have to tell me when I'm up there. I'll be watching you from up there." I feel in a way that he is.

Zibby: Aw, that's so nice. That's amazing. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

Deborah: The advice is pretty much advice that I was told and inspired by many years ago. Just write. Don't wait until you've got it all right. All those notes that I was writing all those years, I did eventually incorporate, not all of them of course. I couldn't, but many of them. If I had waited until I knew what shape the book was going to have, I would never have written it because it was so hard to know what shape it would have until I started writing. Then having all of that material, it was certainly challenging to figure out how to shape it, what to include, what to leave out. Maybe that was the hardest, deciding what to leave out. Having been writing and having all that material to start with I think is what made it possible.

Zibby: That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on my show. Thank you for sharing your beautiful stories. I feel so great knowing that I got to hear just a sliver of the backstory of this beautiful love letter to your dad. Thanks.

Deborah: Thank you so much. Thank you.

Zibby: Have a great day.

Deborah: You too.

Victoria Montgomery-Brown, DIGITAL GODDESS

Zibby Owens: Welcome, Victoria. Thank you so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Victoria Montgomery Brown: Thanks, Zibby. This is a great pleasure.

Zibby: This is so nice. I think you are my third classmate from HBS to be on my podcast. I had Lea Carpenter and Charles Duhigg and now you. Look at this. It's great.

Victoria: Charles interviewed me maybe three weeks ago on Big Think, actually, for the book. I was like, who could be a great interviewer? Charles.

Zibby: He was awesome. That's great. You all are just so accomplished. It's a pleasure to be able to talk to you. Now you've written this great book, Digital Goddess: The Unfiltered Lessons of a Female Entrepreneur, which is amazing. You were just telling me I'm seeing this before you even saw it. I'm seeing this before you. This is the copy of your book, at least the advance copy, which looks great. Congratulations. Victoria, you've already founded this amazing company, Big Think. Why also write a book? What made you want to sit down and share all your lessons with the rest of us? By the way, thank you. I appreciate it.

Victoria: You're welcome. I think it was because, essentially, over the years, probably mostly in the last five years, I've received lots of emails from young women who are aspiring entrepreneurs. Obviously, it takes a while to build a successful business. Big Think is doing well now. We reach about forty million people a month. I think because of that, women started to reach out to me and ask, I have an interest in being an entrepreneur too, how did you do it? My business partner, actually, Peter Hopkins, was the one who really encouraged me to do it. He's like, "You have a unique perspective. There are female entrepreneurs, but not a ton of them. A lot of them don't become the CEO. I think it would be good for you to write a book and explain how you did it or how we did it, especially for young women," but it's really for entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs at any stage or age.

Zibby: As you were talking, by the way, I realized I also had Jeff Norton on my podcast who was also in our class. Anyway, okay, enough. [laughs] Thank you for women CEOs and entrepreneurs. Could you share the story that you wrote about in the book, which was hilarious, I mean, scary in its own right as well, but when you were called into the police department and had to share with your investors all the craziness of what happened after your prior job incident?

Victoria: Yes. I say in the book that I was arrested, but I actually was talking to my criminal defense attorney who is my friend now from years ago. He corrected me and said I was not actually arrested because there's no record of it. All of it was expunged. In the moment, I was arrested, but not legally. In any case, it was November or December of 2007, so literally a few weeks before Big Think was about to launch. A big story was coming out in The New York Times I think on January 7th with Larry Summers who was the former president of Harvard and former treasury secretary talking about why he had decided to be an initial investor in Big Think. This was a huge deal. It was maybe the second page of The New York Times Business section. I was walking out of Union Square subway station. It was the era of flip phones, unbelievably. I got a call from a number I didn't recognize. Typically, I don't answer phone calls from numbers I don't recognize, but something told me to answer this call. I did.

I picked up the phone. There was a guy's voice with a strong New York accent and sounded kind of laughing, like a laughing tone. He introduced himself as a senior detective from the NYPD and told me that I needed to come into a specific precinct. Me being naïve or something, I had never had any dealings the police or anything like that, and so I just put on my good girl hat and was like, oh, my gosh, I've got to get into a car. I went directly to the police station. I called my dad on the way. He said, "What are you doing? You don't even know why you're going. Get out of the car." But I kept going. I arrived at the precinct. There was a man there dressed in civilian clothes, I guess you'd call them, waiting for me. He was just totally laughing, but it was a big deal. I was arrested; again, whatever, expunged later. I sat in a room with a one-way mirror for maybe three hours. I think it was just intimidation tactics of some kind. Somebody that I had previously worked for was not pleased that I had left and called into a flurry of activity, basically, the New York justice system. It was terrifying.

As I say in the book, I could have basically just hidden this from our investors or denied it, pretend that it didn't happen. As soon as I came out, my business partner and I started calling our investors. I called the majority of them -- Peter actually called Larry because he knew him better at that stage than I did -- and just fessed up to what happened. One of our classmates is actually the lead investor in Big Think, David Frankel. He was the first person I called. I had no idea what to expect from any of these people. Would they be mad? Would they disavow me? Would they want to divest? They had no idea what the outcome was going to be, nor did I. Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised. They all supported me. It taught me a lesson that has been fundamental for the entire duration of Big Think and being an entrepreneur. Get out in front of the bad news as quickly as you can. Be as honest and as blunt as possible. People will support you. I mention in the book at some stage, the story of Elizabeth Holmes. Once you start digging into yourself a hole, it's really difficult to get out. You actually have to dig deeper. I learned immediately that you have to be honest. As much as it's painful, that's the thing to do.

Zibby: It's so true. Even with my kids, it's like, "I'm not even that upset that you stole the cookie. I'm more upset that you lied about stealing the cookie." It's the same thing. Somehow, the lies themselves make whatever it was almost pale in comparison to the fact that you then can't trust the person. Once you don't have trust in your relationship, what else is left? Usually, you don't have to learn it in such a dramatic Law & Order-type way, but I'm glad that you lived this for the rest of us. That's crazy. Just for the people who aren't familiar with Big Think, do you want to explain what it is and why you founded it to begin with and what people can get out of it?

Victoria: Big Think is a global knowledge forum with leading thinkers and influencers. We say to be on Big Think you have to be at the top of your field or disrupting it, everybody from Nobel laureates to business leaders, politics, artists, academics. We've had everybody on from the likes of Elon Musk to Richard Branson, Larry Summer. It's global. It's international. We reach around forty million people a month. The large majority of it is free. It's short-form video and also articles. Then we also have a subscription side of it which is much more focused on professional and personal growth and development. We've been around since 2008. It's growing. It's something I'm very proud of. When we started it, the dearth of thoughtful content on the internet -- we pitched it to our investors as Davos, democratized. For people who don't know, Davos is thing which is probably not happening this year, but that happens next year in January in Switzerland where notable business leaders and world leaders, and Bono, get together. [laughter] I think he's always there. I don't know. I've never been. They get together in the Alps. They talk about global issues.

All of these incredible people get exposed to other incredible, notable people, but the likes of me and other people don't get to go and participate. We thought, why don't we create a scenario where regular people have access to the minds of incredible thought leaders? We created Big Think. We pitched it to initial investors as Davos, democratized. It's grown from there. The fundamental principle of it hasn’t changed. We really do want to expose incredible people to our audience and in ways that is not of the moment. It's not about what's happening politically today, yesterday, tomorrow. It's really, what can this person, whether they be a politician or a business leader or an artist, teach you or I that we can put it into our own work or lives and make ourselves and our lives better and those around us? We say that it has to stand the test of time. Now, are there moments when we do do something that's of the moment? Yes, but ninety to ninety-five percent of the content we create is evergreen.

Zibby: Excellent. Do you go on it and tune up on certain topics yourself?

Victoria: I absolutely do. For instance, we had recently, I suppose it was one of our last in-studio interviews before COVID, with Robin DiAngelo who wrote White Fragility, the book, she gave a masterclass for Big Think on confronting racism. That, to me, was really profound and interesting. Yes, I do go on and learn about topics that I didn't know about all the time. At the moment, it's interesting for us because we're doing a lot of this type of interviewing where before, we'd had people come into our studio. What's been interesting, and I don't know if you've found this, it's been much easier for us to have access to guests. I interviewed Penn Jillette, the magician, about six weeks ago. Typically, it would take maybe six months to book him. He lives in Las Vegas. Getting a plane to come to New York or us going to Las Vegas, big barriers to entry. Now doing things like this, it's been so much easier. Next week, we're interviewing Malcom Gladwell. We've done him. We've interviewed him maybe three times before. Again, it's typically a six-month or so booking process. This was a week or two. This has changed things, not that you asked, but it has.

Zibby: Well, now I'm just going to call Malcom Gladwell next. It sounds like he has plenty of spare time. I have noticed that, actually. My access to authors, of course, has expanded because it doesn't matter where they are. I used to really insist that people, not insist, but I used to request that people come over. That was so nice. I really got to know people really well one on one. We would sit right here. Now this is so much more efficient. I can fit in more interviews. There are pros and cons to everything. I would still, if I had my druthers, sit here next to you instead of on the computer. It's lovely this way too. You had so many great tips in your book. I'll just pick out a few that I thought were pretty great. Here's one. This is from HBS. I'm not even sure I learned this. You said, "Here's something major that HBS taught me. You don't need to know how to do things. You need to know how to ask people to do things for you. This is something at which I excel." [laughs]

Victoria: It's true. I was thinking back to this a few weeks ago. I was in a study group, actually, with our classmate and friend Lea Carpenter. I helped organize the study group with Lea. There were probably eight of us in the study group. I was the only one who was not a Baker Scholar. Maybe Lea wasn't. I'm not sure. Everybody else was. I managed to assemble this incredible group where I probably contributed, academically, the least, but I managed to learn from incredibly bright people around me. I think that is something to not be ashamed of. People have different skills. When we were putting together the business model and the plan for Big Think and Excel spreadsheets, I suck at Excel, I was like, why do I have to do this? I can find somebody who knows how to do it. It's going to be a whole lot better than anything I put together. That's the approach I've taken. It's definitely been humbling over the years to realize how little I do know. Then it's also freeing to understand that there are people out there who can help you and not to be ashamed to ask. HBS really did teach me that because I did feel oftentimes, I think there is an expression, the diversity admit. I came from an artsy background. I was seated next to a banker, first year, from Goldman Sachs and a Navy Seal. It's like, how do I belong in this situation? That did teach me that I did bring something to the table different than these people. It's not shameful to ask for help.

Zibby: We were there just to make their experience better. [laughter] I actually have a really hard time delegating anything. That's probably one of my weaknesses. I just feel like by the time I find the right person to do something, I could've done it fifty times over myself. It's my own issue.

Victoria: I do feel that sometimes myself. I feel if it takes me longer to ask somebody for help or do something, I'll just do it. Over the years, I've realized so many people I work with can do things far better than I. I have a company that focuses on video production. Do I know how to set up the camera? No, I do not. Do I do any of the editing? No. CEOs of most companies, they should understand the process of what they're building or the product, but they don't need to have to build it themselves.

Zibby: That's true. You can't do everything. You had another great idea here where somebody took a thousand sticky notes with tasks that had to be accomplished, put them all over, and then each day just pulled down one to take off the to-do list, so to speak. I was putting that on my sticky notes. Tell me about that and if you've actually tried it yourself.

Victoria: I have tried it myself. I should be doing it more these days, actually. I think it can be really overwhelming when you think to yourself, I have to build a business or I have to build this product or something. The finality of it is really overwhelming. Versus, if I just call this person today or do one little thing, it feels like you're moving forward. The building of momentum is fundamental to achieving whatever it is you want to achieve. It's so easy to just say, I want to run a marathon or something. If I just go out and walk a hundred feet today and then tomorrow I run five hundred feet or something, you're building the momentum for it. Taking those sticky notes off the wall really does feel like you're like accomplishing something and I think pushes you forward versus, just as I said, the finality of the overwhelmingness of the large project or whatever it is you're trying to do, seems insurmountable versus one little thing at a time.

Zibby: Although, I feel like I would take one down and then think of five other things that I had to do. We'd have to start another wall. I feel like you'd have the first wall, and then you'd have to tackle the second wall [indiscernible/laughter] or something while things just keep building up. I love that visual element of it. I feel like crossing it off the to-do list is sometimes not as rewarding as if you were to pull it down.

Victoria: There's actually a book that a friend of mine, Kate Millican, suggested for me which I bought a couple of weeks ago which is called Best Self. Do you know that?

Zibby: No.

Victoria: This is something which I think is really amazing. It's a thirteen-week plan for a goal or three goals that you want to achieve. It's very, very direct. I started it yesterday. It's called Best Self. It's a very good book.

Zibby: You started the book, or you started the thirteen weeks to achieving something?

Victoria: It's a book that is thirteen weeks to achieving something. It's not like you read this book. It's activities every day to get to a goal.

Zibby: Oh, I see. What are you trying to achieve?

Victoria: I'm trying to achieve, basically, how to be in my -- I'm a very anxious person. I've been through a lot to cause anxiety and stress. For me, it's living in the moment and appreciating the daily things in life versus constantly striving. My achievement is actually being about less achievement at the moment and just being in the moment and calm.

Zibby: This is what it's like going to Harvard Business School. Our goals are to achieve less than we're capable of. [laughter] We're just that amazing that we have to slow ourselves down. It's just too much, oh, my gosh. You kind of slipped in there that you had been through a lot to create anxiety. What are some of the things? Is there anything you were thinking of in particular? Was there some sort of experience in general that you feel like has caused a lot of anxiety in your life? Or was that just a lot meaning the business and all the rest of it?

Victoria: Overwhelmingly, for the past thirteen years it's been the business. I do want to say that it's given me a profound amount of joy and happiness too. I think my tendency is to revert to an anxious state of being and a stressed state of being, hoping for the best but planning for the worst. My go-to is always, this positive thing that happened, and then I think of ten negative things that could derail it. That's a real challenge for me. Over the years, I've gone into many downward spirals when positive things are happening around me. All I see is doom. It was maybe 2013 or '14 that I was in San Francisco with Peter, my business partner. We were seated at Yerba Buena, this coffee place. I started talking about all the problem things that were potentially going to happen to the business and what the investors were going to say and our clients and our employees. He sat there with no joking at all and said, "If this is all going to happen, why are we doing this? Why don't we just quit? What's the point?" Then he pulled himself together and said, "You know Victoria, it's been really difficult to be around you for the past six months. It's all negative all the time. I know that your role as CEO is to see the negative things in potential, but you're also supposed to see the positive and be encouraging people and being a cheerleader versus planning for the doom scenario. You really need to go and get help. I'm not going to just sit back and observe this any longer."

At that stage, I had been seeing, casually, a therapist to just talk about the daily ins and outs. I found that in therapy I tended to be a comedian and my job was to essentially make the therapist laugh. I would emerge from these sessions being like, what was the use of that, really? I wasn't very honest. [laughs] I was about comedy. Anyway, I ended up going to see a psychiatrist. I was placed on or put myself -- I don't know. He placed me on antidepressants and antianxiety medication, one in the same. I think it's Wellbutrin. That really helped me and kind of broke the cycle of the downward doom scenarios. Now, has it made me be the life of the party and the joy and light and airy all the time? No, but it certainly did break a cycle of doom. I would encourage anybody to do that. That was kind of the end of the road for Peter that really helped me. I suppose it's like addiction. Somebody has to do an intervention sometimes for you to take the steps.

Zibby: That's great. How great that he did that and that you were open and receptive to that feedback as opposed to storming away from the table, which I could maybe see myself doing in a similar situation, like, what do you mean?

Victoria: It wasn't easy. I could also know in myself that I wasn't happy. That feeling, it was inward panic that was twenty-four hours or whenever I was awake and the feeling of something bad is about to happen in your stomach that just wouldn't leave. It was really unpleasant for me in my own body as well.

Zibby: I'm really sorry. That's no fun at all. I'm glad you found a way to manage it. Yes, I think therapy is the greatest thing. I wish I had been a therapist myself. Instead, I get to hear about other people's therapy journeys and not have to do all the work, so I get some perks. What was it like for you going back and reflecting on all your time and then sitting down to write this book? What did that feel like? How long did it take for you to write the book? What was that process like?

Victoria: It was actually much quicker than I thought because obviously -- well, not obviously. I've never written a novel. I think that requires way, way, way more effort. What I was writing was what I'd experienced and what I know. The most difficult part for me was figuring out the structure of it. As I began writing, I was like, is this even interesting? It's my story. I was in some ways thinking, who is going to care about this? The most challenging part for me was the structure of it, kind of like in high school or college or whatever, writing an essay, getting down the parts that you want to talk about and then figuring out the order that you're going to tell them in and then the parts that you need to cut. I put together a proposal in June of 2019, oh, my gosh, and didn't think anything about it. I submitted to around ten agents, cold. I finally got one. As they say, and it is true -- I'll encourage anybody who wants to write a book. It just takes one. Nine of ten publishers rejected it. The tenth selected it. It took me three months to write the whole thing.

Zibby: That's fast.

Victoria: Because of the election coming up, it was either going to be pre-election released or post-election released. I didn't know this before writing a book, but the editorial and publishing process is very long. The whole thing was finished by December of last year. Then obviously, there have been tweaks and things to it and then choosing the book cover and things like that. The bulk of the work and all the writing was done by December because they needed it done by that. It was a very, very quick writing process. I will say that I think had I been given a year or something, I might not have done it. It's kind of like cramming for a test or something. The fact that I had to do it in such a short timeframe meant that I actually did it.

Zibby: It's like that saying, if you give a busy person something to do, they’ll do it fast. If I have a thousand things to do, then throw it in. I'll make that call. I'll send that email. On a lazy Sunday, if I'm not doing anything, I can't even send one email sometimes.

Victoria: I remember graduating from HBS in 2003. As I wrote in the book, I didn't have a job until November or something of that year. I was staying at my sister's house in New York, or apartment. I remember in the morning, getting out of bed and having been at HBS being busy all the time, I found it a struggle to even plan to go to the gym. It seemed like a huge effort and ridiculous.

Zibby: Yes, I felt the same way. I still sometimes feel like that. Going to the gym is hard. [laughter] I see what you're saying. So what's coming next for you? You have this book coming out which is so exciting. You're running your business. What else? What else is coming up?

Victoria: In this book, Best Self, there's this thirteen-week bucket list which I'm trying to put my mind to about things I want to do. I really do want to expand into other areas personally as well. I'd love to learn Spanish, which I have never done. I grew up in Canada and studied French for twelve years. I'm in no way fluent in French, which tells you about learning languages in schools. [laughs] I have to go and immerse myself somewhere. At some point in the next year when the whole COVID thing hopefully ends, I'd like to go to Spain and learn Spanish and also just be much more open to things other than work. That doesn't mean that work isn't going to be front and center, but it will be alongside other things. That's really it.

Zibby: This is great. I feel like I caught you at this major self-improvement moment in your life. You're trying to do all these different things. It's amazing. It's so great. You mentioned already, it only takes one as advice to aspiring authors. What other advice would you share?

Victoria: Just keep going. The hardest part, even for me, is getting the first few words down. Then once you start writing, it's easier. The blank page, I know much better writers than I even struggle with that. It's just literally starting. That's even what I said with a business. It's just taking the leap and saying you're going to do it. That's something else I write about in the book. If you tell people that you're going to do it, it's really hard to not do it. If I said to you, I'm about to start writing my second book, and in two months you called me and asked how it was going, I'd be slightly abashed if I hadn’t even started it. I'm not writing a second book at the moment. [laughs]

Zibby: I do that too. I'm like, I'm going on this eating plan. I'm telling everybody I know about it. Then maybe it will work or something. The more you can get it out loud, the more there's a shot at it. It's good to apply to this. I feel like so many of your tips apply not just to the workplace, but to every aspect of life. It's really user-friendly. I feel like women are entrepreneurs even who don't work in the workplace. Just running our lives and for people who have lots of kids, everything can be like a business. All the tips are super relevant in any context, so thank you. Thanks for the book. Thanks for chatting today.

Victoria: Thanks so much, Zibby. This has been wonderful.

Zibby: Thank you. Take care.

Victoria: Bye.

Zibby: Bye, Victoria.

Heather Land, A PERFECT 10

Heather Land: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Zibby Owens: Oh, my gosh, I'm thrilled to have you. I've been really excited to do it.

Heather: Thank you. You've given me a reason to get up this morning and put on a bra, so I appreciate it.

Zibby: That might be the most useful thing I do for anyone all day.

Heather: It's a reason to live.

Zibby: That's good. [laughs] Congrats on the release of your latest book, A Perfect 10. So exciting. Look your I Ain't Doin' It mug. Look at that.

Heather: Got to represent this morning, right?

Zibby: Yes, exactly. I think I saw that your shirts were sold out or you're rereleasing your shirts. Aren't you doing something with merch or something? Do you have a new T-shirt?

Heather: Yeah, we have a new 2020 I Ain't Doin' It. They sold out in two hours. We were like, oh, we grossly underbought. We've got to rethink this. We've got to make a new order. That's a good problem to have.

Zibby: It's a good problem to have. For people who aren't as familiar with your trajectory to becoming this sensation comedian, Instagram, author, everything, can you talk a little bit about how you got started and how you ended up here?

Heather: It's kind of a crazy, weird phenomenon, really. I had just gone through a divorce after almost fifteen years of marriage. I had been in ministry my whole life and leading worship. My ex-husband was a youth pastor. When you go through a divorce in the church world -- church work is very emotional. It takes heart and soul. I just didn't see a way to continue doing that at that point. I was really broken and needed to heal. I moved home from Colorado. I was in Colorado. I moved home to Tennessee. Moved in with my parents for about three months, me and my kids. That was great fun. Then finally got a little rent house. Got a job. A really good friend of mine gave me a job doing some administrative work for him. Then ended up creating a refinance department, essentially, for his company. He put me in charge of it. I'm like, "Listen, I can barely do simple addition. Are you sure?" He really took a gamble and gave me a good job with some stability.

In the meantime, my kids had turned me onto Snapchat. I found the ugliest filter I could find on Snapchat and was just making really stupid videos between me and a couple of my friends. They were like, "You need to put these on social media." I said, "Absolutely not. I'm single. This is not the way to get a date." I wouldn't do it for the longest. Then finally, on a dare, one of them dared me -- I can't even remember what my reward was for doing it. It was evidently something really great, so I finally posted my first video to Facebook, to my personal page. People started watching it. They were messaging me saying, "We love your I ain't doin' it videos. Is that what they're called?" I was like, "They're not called anything. I don't even know what you're talking about, I ain't doin' it." I didn't even realize that I had said it. I had to go back and re-watch it. I was like, oh, I did say I ain't doin' it. People were asking me for more. I was like, okay, yeah, we'll make some more I ain't doin' it videos. I made two or three more. Then Susannah Lewis, Whoa! Susannah, she reached out to me. She actually was one of my neighbors, but I never knew her at the time. She just said, "Can I post a video?" I said, "Sure. I've got a big girl job, so I don't really care. You can do whatever you want." She said, "You're going to need to start a fan page because people will start following you." I didn't even understand what she was talking about. I was mortified to start a fan page. I said, "Absolutely not. People are going to think I want to be a comedian. I've got a real job. I'm not trying to be a comedian." She said, "I'm telling you, you're going to want to start that page to keep people away from your kids and all that," so I did.

I started a fan page. I went to work that morning. It was September the 6th, 2017. I started that fan page. When I went to church that night -- we still go to church on Wednesday nights in the South. I went to church that night. There were 750 followers, which I thought was amazing. She had posted her video, obviously. When I came home, there were 55,000 followers. It just kept going up and up and up. After a month, the page was at a million. I had my two cousins and a girlfriend answering thousands of messages every day. They would report back, "I'm sitting here typing at work. They're just blowing me up on my phone. People want you to come to their churches and their events and their theaters." I'm like, "What do they want me to do?" They wanted me to do comedy. I told my friend Tasha, I said, "I am not a comedian." She said, "Yes, you are. You just don't get paid for it. Do you want to try to get paid for it?" I'm like, "I don't know." Two weeks later, I quit my job. I sold my brand-new house that I had just built. I moved in with some friends in Nashville for about three months until I found a place, sold a bunch of T-shirts to get me by for a few months so I'd have a paycheck, and here we are. I went on tour. I've done a couple of tours now. It's the weirdest life I've ever lived, but I just am loving it. I'm taking it in stride. I'm like, okay, whatever's next. Let's see.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.

Heather: It's been super [indiscernible].

Zibby: I saw on your Instagram that you met -- your husband was your production manager on your tour.

Heather: Yes! We're getting married in twenty-four days. He was my production manager on my first tour. My manager introduced me to him and said, "This is your production manager for this round." We jumped on a bus and just fell in love pretty immediately. We've been inseparable ever since. Now he is really my road manager, essentially, if I can ever get back on the road because of COVID. We obviously get each other and our line of work. We love being on the road. We love traveling. It's been awesome all the way around, just really sweet, redemptive story after going through quite a bit. It's been a relief and a joy.

Zibby: It's amazing. We get a sneak peek at a happy ending already.

Heather: Right, for me too. Every day, I wake up -- this morning, I said, "We're getting married in twenty-four days." Every day is just so exciting. I've never lived that life. It's very weird and wonderful. I just love it. Loving it.

Zibby: I have to say, as I was researching you and reading your book and learning about your story, I feel like there are some parallels. I also got divorced. I was forty when I got divorced, or around there. I had four kids and had to start over again. That's actually how I ended up starting this podcast, which came out of nowhere for me. Now it's become a whole thing. I actually got remarried a couple years ago now, but totally fell in love, my own sort of redemptive story. Anyway, when I was looking at your pictures and getting all ready for the wedding, I was thinking back to my wedding and getting bridesmaids dresses for my little girls and my boys. It can happen.

Heather: Can we have coffee off the record soon so we can talk about all that?

Zibby: Yes, please.

Heather: I would like to dig into that a little more. It's interesting. Like I said, I did ministry my whole life. Once I went through a divorce, it opened me up to a whole new group of people that I never could relate to. Really, it's like half of the population. I'm like, oh, wow, this is a new ballgame. People have gone through a lot when they’ve gotten divorced. I had no clue. It really does change the whole game. You start over. You have to check the divorced box on your taxes. That was a tough one for me. It is a stripping away of everything that you thought represented stability to you. Really, I feel like even though I have tapped into this new side of myself that I didn't even know was there, I really have found who I am through divorce. It's been such a beautiful experience on this side of it.

Zibby: I feel the same way. That's why sometimes I feel like I want to shout it from the rooftops. I'm like, I'm me again. I had lost me for so long. I didn't think I was coming back. Now this is just who I am. Now every day I get to talk to people and record it. [laughs] It's not just in my professional life. It's in every area. My mom says your sparkle comes back.

Heather: You're alive again, really. Hopefully for me, it seems like this is your story as well, that you have a partner now who lets you be you and gives you the freedom to explore who you are and all the changes of who you are. That's really what Steven does for me. He loves me every phase. Whether I'm a comedian or not, he doesn't care. At first, I thought, oh, gosh, he only knows me on the road. Is he still going to love me off the road? Then COVID hit. I went, okay, here we go. This is going to test the waters. We've had the greatest time quarantining together. We just love each other's company. He really lets me be me. It is just so refreshing.

Zibby: That's amazing. How is it with your kids?

Heather: Quarantine or new stepdad?

Zibby: Well, both. I mean with him, incorporating a new guy into the scene.

Heather: It's been wonderful. They absolutely adore him. They're thrilled about the wedding. I'm kind of like you, I'm picking out my son's -- we went and got his suit and getting my daughter's dress. They absolutely adore him. He doesn't have children. He's never wanted kids, but he always potentially saw himself marrying someone with children. He loves the older age, which I know nothing about. I'm all about that baby phase. Now I've got a seventeen-year-old and an almost fourteen-year-old. I have no clue what to do with them, not to mention we are virtual schooling and I am the most technically challenged human being. Steven left to go send off some T-shirts. I was like, "Please don't leave me alone with Zoom." He looked at my phone. He said, "You don't even have Zoom on your phone." How have I been surviving? All to say, he is the technical guru of the family. Right now while they're both virtual schooling, I am not parenting. I just lay around and drink coffee in my pajamas while he parents. You know what? I'm like, "Listen, it's your turn. It's your turn. I'm tired. I'm tapping out." It's really been a great partnership from my perspective anyway.

Zibby: [laughs] My husband is the same. He didn't have kids of his own. He just walked into our situation and embraced it. Now he cuts all the kids' hair. He does all the cooking.

Heather: I need to meet this guy.

Zibby: He buys a lot of their clothes, like the coolest this and that, and things that I just don't know. He's up on all of it. It's such a gift.

Heather: A gift, yes. Zero to four, man, he deserves more than a pat on the back. Good for him for embracing it. That's so wonderful. I love that.

Zibby: Before we even got together, I was like, "Okay, just don't even kiss me because I have four kids. I'm not having any more kids. You could go meet some pretty young thing and have lots of babies and have your life. Just let me walk down the beach the other way." [laughs]

Heather: You are so funny. I said the same thing to Steven. I said, "Listen, you don't have to sign up for this. This is a lot. I've got baggage. I've got kids. I've got a lot of history. Save yourself. Run." He just wouldn't. Every day that he stayed, I think it made me love him so much more, you know? You do know. You get it.

Zibby: I totally get it. It's funny because I don't often meet people in the same life stage situation hardly ever. I'm trying to think if I know anybody. Anyway, it's nice.

Heather: I want to interview you. I want to ask you more questions. We need to continue this at a later date, for sure.

Zibby: Yes, I would love to. I would really love to. Oh, my gosh. By the way, I read in your book that you grew up with a payphone in your house. I thought that was one of the most memorable details I've read lately. [laughs]

Heather: Yes. It's one of my most memorable details of my life. It's turned out to be a great memory, actually. At the time, it was not. Obviously, you read my mom lived only thirty minutes from her family, but it was still long distance. She was running up that phone bill. My dad was not having any more of it. He told her if she didn't quit, he was putting in a payphone. He stuck to his word. We had a little bowl of dimes sitting on top of it. We'd have to stick a dime in there every time we wanted to talk. Then the chord was maybe a foot and a half, so you weren’t going anywhere. Everybody was listening to your convo right there in the hall. It was -- wow. I don't even know what to say about it. It was scary, not fun.

Zibby: You said in your book that you were always the kid from the very beginning who would try to entertain the grown-ups. As an only child, that would be your thing, making people laugh or entertaining them. That's who you are. Is that just how it was?

Heather: Mostly, I entertained them with my hairbrush. I would sing. That was my gig as a kid. Whenever anybody asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I wanted to be a singer. That's all I cared about. My parents kind of pawned me off as the singing entertainment. I was petrified every time, but I always loved it. I always did it. That's where it started. Always growing up, I was the one who always tried to get a joke in under the radar. Sarcasm really got me through life. I touched on it just a little bit in this new book because I'm honestly trying to just test the waters with it. I talked a little bit about growing up with an addictive parent in the house. I think sarcasm really helped me muddle through that, unknowingly. I didn't even realize that was a coping mechanism that's now turned into a career. I do think that's what it was. It was just a way to cope. I've always been, interestingly, very melancholy. I cry a lot. I also am super sarcastic and optimistic at the same time. It's quite the conundrum, quite the split personality. The comedy side just helped me through life. It still does every day.

Zibby: That's what they say. You just have to have a sense of humor.

Heather: You got to laugh or you'll cry. That's what we say in the South.

Zibby: That's a better expression.

Heather: You got to laugh or you'll cry.

Zibby: So tell me about how the writing entered into your life. You started the viral videos. Things started blowing up. Then when did this become a writing thing?

Heather: I think it was actually a few weeks before I even posted a video, I really felt in my heart -- I'll never forget where I was. I was sitting in my bedroom in my house. I was writing on my computer, just like a little blog entry except that I had no blog. I thought, you know what, I think I'm going to start a blog. I remember texting a friend and telling her that. I feel like I'm supposed to start a blog. I don't know why, but I'm just going to throw it out there and see what sticks to the wall. Started a little WordPress free blog spot and started just posting a few random entries. Once the videos went viral, I got approached by some literary agents. I didn't even know what a literary agent was. I read the emails. I was like, I don't really know what this means. A friend of mine was like, "They're wanting to try to get you a book deal." I'm like, "A book deal?" I was just so new to all of it. I thought, well, okay. I've got a blog. I know how to communicate. Let's give it a go. As you can see from my writing, it is very conversational. There is nothing fancy about it. It is exactly like I would sit here and talk to you. I think it works for a humor book and for comedy. It's relatable. It's pretty dumbed down. Anybody with a third-grade reading level can snatch it up and get through it in a day. [laughs] It's pretty simple. That's how it started.

Zibby: You are playing the book down tremendously. By the way, being able to take what's in your head and get it on the page is not something that everybody can do. That is actually a skill.

Heather: You're so sweet. You know what? Sometimes I think, and I've said this to Steven, I've said, "I think I just need to go write my thoughts down because I'm better on paper." If I can write you a letter and tell you how I feel, it will come out so much more accurately and eloquently than if I try to muddle through the millions of thoughts in my brain. For some reason, it's almost a better means of communication. Too bad I can't put tape over my mouth and just put a pen in my hand.

Zibby: My husband Kyle is finally like, "You cannot email me anymore. Stop emailing me these paragraph-long things."

Heather: Can't get through them.

Zibby: I'd be like, "Here's how I feel." He's like, "I'm sitting right --" He'd be on the couch. It's so much easier to say it right and get it down.

Heather: And delete. You can delete before it's out there for everybody, before you can not take it back. That's the beauty of it. You get it.

Zibby: He's like, "I don't even have time to read all these." [laughs] After a while, I'm writing him books.

Heather: Put them in your memoir.

Zibby: Exactly. [laughs] Got to save those. Dig them up somewhere.

Heather: That's right, girl.

Zibby: Then how did you find the whole experience? Tell me about the first book versus the second book. How was it with the book out there, your whole life out there, your kids, people responding to it, and all of that?

Heather: It's interesting. The first book, I had this well of blog entries to draw from. I knew that I wanted it to be just an essay book, standalone chapters. You don't have to read it in order, simple stories. The first one, I think there was so much momentum behind -- I was on tour. I would watch Steven. He's on the stage working during the day. Of course, I don't go on until the night. I would sit up in the balcony at whatever venue we were at and I would just write. It was a really fun, easy experience for me. Like I said, I think the momentum of the time kept me going, kept the juices flowing. The second one, if I'm being totally honest, the first thought that came into my head was, I don't know how in the world I'm going to write a second book. I have nothing to say. I'm so tired. I did pinch-hit a little bit with this book. One of my best friends -- if I was having a bridal party, she would be my maid of honor. She is throwing me a bridal lunch and doing the whole thing. We're not having a wedding party. Anyway, she's a great writer. Her name is Heather Leonard. She's in Mississippi. I asked her to help me with this book. We kind of tag teamed it. She did most of the heavy lifting with my stories. We talked through it and rewrote and had fun girl weekends where we got together and wrote. It was really nice to have a little bit of help from somebody on the outside that was pulling things out of me.

The book is very similar in style. It's another essay book. It's standalone chapters about nonsense and just more stories of growing up Southern. I do write a whole chapter about Steven and how we met. I write, like I said at the beginning of our convo, a little bit about growing up in addiction. That is something I really do want to write more about and talk more about. I'm trying to ride that fine line of being a comedian and telling my story but without embarrassing or disrespecting anyone. That's definitely not in my heart to do. I've really tried to find the balance. I wrote a little bit about it, which was just me tiptoeing in to see how I felt and to see how it was received. It's nothing too deep, but I do want to get that part of the story out there because I think people will relate. It's honest. It's real. A lot of people go through it, people that we don't even realize. I want to give people the freedom to share that part of their story. That's why I wrote about it. My kids, when it comes to writing or comedy or anything that I do, they just think I'm an idiot. They are completely unimpressed with me. My son constantly says, "I cannot believe you make a living doing this." It is baffling to him, and to me too. They're not impressed. I wrote in the first book, I dedicated it to them or I wrote in the acknowledgments to them. They don't care. They're like, "That's sweet. Thanks." They just want to go be with their friends, for me to buy them a skateboard so they can skate, give them money to go shop. Typical teenage life, unimpressed with mom, which is awesome. I wouldn't have it any other way, really.

Zibby: How else would you stay humble?

Heather: Absolutely. [laughs]

Zibby: How did you monetize the comedy? Was it going on the road and selling tickets? Not to dive into your personal finances here.

Heather: It's a totally fair question. Doing live events, that’s the way. I have no money anymore because I haven't been on the road in a year. I've done one show this year. It was on Valentine's Day. That's what has brought in the money. Merch helps a little bit. It helps just monthly, pay the bills. I'm very grateful for that. Very ready to get back on the road not just because that's my livelihood, but I really love the people. Every time I get on the stage, I feel like I'm in somebody's living room. It's scary, but it's so fun. The relationship that I'm able to somehow develop between me and the people overrides the nerves. Writing a set is very daunting. I don't know about you, but my creative process is weird. Everybody's is different. I have a friend who's a songwriter. He tells me you have to schedule in creativity. You have to schedule it. I try to do it. I try to do it his way, but it doesn't work for me. I'll go to writing sessions. I still write songs. I've got some buddies that I write with. If I'm not feeling it, nothing comes out of it every time. The minute that I'm feeling inspiration, and eventually I always do feel it, I'll just say, I got to go. I got to go write. I'll get in the car or I'll get in the bathtub. Those are my two best places to think and write. It's the weirdest thing. It just comes out. The process is super weird. The payoff is being in front of people and doing the live comedy. Man, it's quite the thrill for me.

Zibby: You're bringing a laptop into the tub?

Heather: I've just got my notes out on my phone.

Zibby: Oh, the phone. Okay.

Heather: Yeah, I've just got my phone out.

Zibby: I'm thinking, this is a very risky writing habit here.

Heather: I do have one of those long things that goes across my tub and I can set my computer on it. I'm super scared. I'm better with just my phone. That's how it goes for me.

Zibby: Do you have any advice to aspiring authors now having written two books and all the sets you do and everything else?

Heather: Oh, lord. First of all, I am not one to be giving advice. Let's just throw out that disclaimer. Since you asked, this is my advice. Be honest. Be authentic. I just feel like that's what people want to hear. They want something they can relate to. I've been in church my whole life. I've sat through a million and one sermons. I've fallen asleep in probably three quarters of those. The minute somebody starts talking about something they went through or a personal story from their own life, I perk up. I think we all do. That's my advice. Start with the real thing, whatever it is. Tap into how you know what you know. Is it because of an experience? Yes. So write about that. Let me know how you went through that thing and how you got through that divorce and how you got through that addiction. People are sick of fake. I'm so sick of that. I have no room for it. Be honest. Push through the non-creative moments. Don't quit. It's pretty simple from my perspective anyway.

Zibby: Love it. Heather, thank you. Thank you for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." I really would love to keep talking.

Heather: I know. Me too. Call me back. Call me on my cell phone. Where are you? I don't even know where you are.

Zibby: I'm in New York. Where are you?

Heather: It's my favorite city. Hey, I'll come to you.

Zibby: Great.

Heather: I'll come to you. We'll have coffee. Can we go to Chelsea Market? It's my favorite place in New York.

Zibby: Is it still open? I wonder if it's open now.

Heather: I'm sure it's not. Once COVID's over, I'll come to you.

Zibby: I would love it. Let's do it.

Heather: That sounds great.

Zibby: Where are you? You're in Nashville?

Heather: Tennessee, Nashville.

Zibby: I've never been there. It's the top of my list.

Heather: Okay, well, you come to me too.

Zibby: I would love to come there.

Heather: That sounds great. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it.

Zibby: Bye.

Heather: Bye.

Brooke Adams Law, CATCHLIGHT

Zibby Owens: Welcome to "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." Congratulations on Catchlight. So awesome.

Brooke Adams Law: Thank you. I'm really excited.

Zibby: Start by telling the story of the prize you won and how this whole novel came to be.

Brooke: Oh, my gosh, okay. It's a little bit of a journey. I don't know if you're even ready. I had the idea in the summer of 2007, so this is thirteen years in the making, which is part of the reason why it's so exciting. The way that it came to be originally was I had this idea for a book. It's twofold. My grandmother had recently died of Alzheimer's disease. Also at the time, I had just graduated college. I was reading this book by Madeleine L'Engle, one of her lesser-known books called The Severed Wasp. That book is about this woman, Katherine, who's in her eighties. She's a concert pianist. For her whole career, she travels the whole world. She retires. She comes home to New York City to make peace with her life and really process her memories and figure out, what was that whole life I just lived about? I started asking this question. What happens if we don't get to do that at the end of our life? What happens if you go through this process of having dementia or Alzheimer's and you don't remember your life? What happens then? That was the genesis of the book. In any case, I started writing. I ended up with a draft. I was like, I know that it can be better. I have no idea how to make it better. I decided to get my MFA degree. I spent the two years of my program, I started over from the beginning, wrote the whole book again; started over a third time, wrote the whole book again.

In any case, this brings us all the way up to 2014. I went gangbusters, queried 125 agents, was entering contests, was pitching small presses. It's no after no, after no, after no. Then also, the silence, silence, silence from other people. [laughs] I put it away for a little while. Then in 2019, I entered, for the second time, the Fairfield Book Prize contest. The first time around, I didn't even make the final cut. I was like, what do I have to lose? I have nothing to lose. The thing about the Fairfield Book Prize is it's only open to members of the Fairfield MFA community. You have to either be a student or have graduated from that program. On the one hand, it's a smaller pool than a lot of contests. On the other hand, you know that everyone's work is really good. Everyone's worked with the same amazing mentors as you. Everyone's really solid in what they're doing. In any case, I entered in 2019. That June when my daughter was nine days old, I opened my inbox. It's like, "Hey, did you get our email from two days ago? Catchlight won the Fairfield Book Prize." Part of the prize is a book deal with Woodhall Press. That's how it came to be.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, so awesome. I love that story. How old, now, is your daughter?

Brooke: My daughter is fifteen months old at this point. She's toddling around and has big opinions about life. Then my son is four. We're right in the thick of it parenting-wise.

Zibby: That must have been the best feeling ever. It just goes to show, persistence is so important. It doesn't even matter who ends up publishing it. Until I was getting to know this industry, and I don't know if it's just me, but I never paid an ounce of attention to who published what book. I didn't know what the reputations were of different publishers. None of that meant anything to me even as a huge reader. Do you feel the same way?

Brooke: Yeah. I've been a reader for all of my life. I have never even noticed if it's a small press. Sometimes I end up with self-published and I don't even know. I don't even know that that's the case. I really feel that way too. I never paid any attention until recently.

Zibby: I realize now that they all have their own particular brand of -- well, their own particular brand, end of story. For people buying books, who cares? It doesn't matter where the book comes from. It's so amazing that you got yours out there and that we're talking. It was a very motivating, inspiring story to not give up. When you know you have something to share, just kept getting it out there.

Brooke: Thank you so much. For me, there was also this lesson of sometimes there's a pause. There was a pause of a few years where I was consciously like, I'm going to put this away for a little while. I'm not giving up on it. I also wanted to write something else. I was spending all this time pitching. I was like, I really just want to work on something else. It was a pause. What I see now, because hindsight of course is twenty/twenty, is this idea that six years ago, I didn't know anything about marketing or the business side of publishing. Since then, I started my own business, and so I know a lot about marketing and just getting the word out. I feel like I'm in a much better position that I would've been five or six years ago. That gives me some hope. Sometimes it's the not yet. It's not a no. It's just not yet. It's the patience and persistence married together that really made the difference for me.

Zibby: Totally. You went and got a whole degree in the middle. I tried writing a novel when I was just out of business school. This is when I was twenty-eight or something. I remember I applied to MFA programs, which people said was ridiculous because I had just finished business school. I don't know if I actually meant it. Anyway, I got rejected by the two I applied to. I was like, well, that's it. I'm not supposed to be a writer. End of story. [laughs]

Brooke: I don't know. I don't think that the gatekeepers that get to decide -- that goes with publishing too. There are great books out there and great writers. There's gatekeepers that may or may not know. It's just maybe not a fit for their program, but it doesn't mean that you don't get to be a writer, if you want.

Zibby: I interviewed Jennifer Weiner again recently for a live event that we did for Temple Emanu-El. She was saying anybody on social media can be a published author now in two second. That's it. Write something. You put it on your post. There are no gatekeepers in some ways at all. There's almost too much content on the one hand and not enough in the other. As long as it reaches people, that's the greatest.

Brooke: Agreed.

Zibby: Your book was great. You had all the different perspectives with the people dealing with their mother who had Alzheimer's and the initial diagnosis and then the father. I don't want to give things away. I was like, oh, my gosh, no, now this? And such super different characters. I thought that, at first, the whole book would be told from the point of view of Laura. Then when I got James's perspective and what was going down in the bar bathroom and all of that, I was like, whoa, Brooke, okay. [laughs] Hold onto my hat here.

Brooke: I know. I love it. When I was in my MFA program, one of my professors recommended -- the original draft was only from the point of view of Laura. As you know, she's a therapist. She's very much always trying to manage everyone's emotions and make everyone play nice with each other. She does not have the best emotional boundaries. Her brother, James, is an alcoholic. He's the family black sheep. He's a total screw-up. I just started playing with his voice. I was like, oh, my gosh, he deserves to have a voice in this story because his perspective is so different. Also, I think there's this interesting tension with James where on one hand, he always screws up. He really does. Then also, it becomes a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy where he's like, everyone just expects me to screw up, so I might as well just hold to the pattern. Then you get to see the different choices that he makes as they go along. It's definitely a firestorm of things happening in their family.

Zibby: Did you take a lot of your grandmother's illness and put that in? Is that how you got all the details? Did you also do a lot of research?

Brooke: This is a great question. I didn't use much from her case or her story at all. I was asking this question about, who are we without our memory? Then when my grandmother was ill, I was away at college. I was only a few hours away, but there was still a certain amount of distance happening. I really thought about it after the fact. My dad is one of six siblings. I didn't see any of this up close, but I was like, what would it be like for siblings in this situation to suddenly -- in the case of this family which is totally fictional, I was like, they don't get along at all. They can't stand to be in the same room. Then all of a sudden, they have to make these very serious decisions about their mother's care and about her finances and how they're going to care for her. That was really all imagined. In terms of the actual disease, I just did a lot of research. I did ask my dad a little bit about his experience, but it was mostly research and then just my imagination going wild.

Zibby: It really is amazing. I feel like they should tell you earlier in life -- for people listening, maybe now this is our chance to tell other people. When my mother-in-law was in the hospital, she had to sign off on things with her brother, from whom she had been estranged for a long time, about their mother's care. Now again, my husband and his sister, they had to join together and sign. You can't lose touch with your siblings or not speak when it comes to making major life decisions for your parents. No matter how grown up you feel, you're ultimately the child of your parent. It comes down, often, to you to make those decisions. I had no idea. Even for the form about cremation, you need both signatures from the children. This is now getting really dark, but I didn't know that. I'm assuming other people might not know that too. Anyway, in your book you mentioned how it was the first time that all the siblings had been together without their spouses or children with their mother and stepdad in a really long time. I feel like as we grow up, it is so rare when we all have our own families to have that initial family back together.

Brooke: Yes, the family of origin. Actually, that line came from -- this was probably about two years ago. Actually, my aunt passed away very suddenly. My family is in Philadelphia. I'm in Connecticut. I drove down for the funeral. It was a blizzard. There was a blizzard happening. My husband ended up -- he was going to come, but he stayed home with our son. In any case, it was my dad, my mom, and my sister, and me. My sister's husband had to leave to go back to work. I can't remember. It was just the four of us. We were sitting in my parent's house where I'd grown up. My dad was like, "Wow, we've never, just the four of us, been together." I think it really was my college graduation, was the last time. That's what it says in the book. It was very poignant for just the four of us to have this moment of this loss for us, for my aunt. Then in the book, it's this moment when they find out Katherine's diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease. It just happens to be the six of them in the room. I felt like that was really significant that the family of origin is coming back together for this sea change in the end of Katherine's life. I felt like that was very important for them to have that time.

Zibby: I'm so sorry about your aunt. That's terrible.

Brooke: Thank you.

Zibby: Now that you've been through this crazy publishing process and your book is out there in the world, tell me about that experience. What's that been like versus what you had in mind? Tell me about the aftermath, if you will.

Brooke: Oh, my gosh. I am honestly having so much fun. [laughs] It's really fun. Like I said, I've been running an online business for a few years. A lot of my launch stuff, I had already been planning to do it online. The fact that we've converged with pandemic is actually -- not that it's ideal for anyone in any way. Also, I'm like, oh, I can just leverage a lot of the things that I already have in place to make it work. I brought together a group of family and friends and people that I know to have a launch team. The launch team idea was, they all preordered the book. Then they got advance copies. We're going to have a party just for the launch team in a week or so on Zoom. They're going to commit to posting a review. It's just a fun way to build buzz. They commit to sharing on social media and telling friends and family of theirs. It just feels fun to work with my friends to get the word out.

They have been so supportive and my champions. It's really lovely to see this community, people from different eras of my life. It's a college friend alongside a colleague from my MFA alongside -- one of my clients signed up. It's just really fun to have them all in a little team and feel like they're standing shoulder to shoulder with me and helping me tell everyone about Catchlight. When people hear the story that I told of, it's thirteen years in the making, that has built some interest as well, which is really fun for me. I'm glad that this journey is appealing in some way. The other thing is, in the middle of it, I did not know that it was going to have this very exciting ending. I was kind of like, I don't know if this book is ever going to see the light of day. That's part of it too. It's such a long culmination that it's really just, I'm so thrilled that people are reading it and enjoying it that I think that shows. People are attracted to that, which is really fun.

Zibby: I love the launch team idea. It seems so simple. Everyone should have a launch team. I've never heard that before. Obviously, you have your teams in the publisher and all that, but just assembling your friends and making it an actual team. Are you giving them all T-shirts and stuff?

Brooke: I have gifts for them. I ordered custom Catchlight bookmarks that are just for the launch team. I'm now doing autographed nameplates that I'm going to send them that they can stick in the book. Like I said, we're doing a party just for them. Then this is actually my most favorite idea. This was an idea that a friend of mine in publishing gave me. They are actually getting access to the original first three chapters of the book that got cut from the final manuscript. The launch team is going to get access to that exclusive content. No one else in the world will get to read the original three chapters. The feedback that I got, which I agreed with, was it was too much setup. I was just setting everything up. My editor was like, "We just need to start. Just throw us in there." I definitely think it's a stronger opening. Also, they’ll get to see originally how I had conceptualized introducing everyone and setting up the world. That's a fun bonus too.

Zibby: So cool. I love that. Wait, so tell me about your marketing business. Maybe I need to hire you for something. [laughs]

Brooke: I love it. I've learned a lot of marketing just for my business. For a long time, I was doing copywriting for online entrepreneurs. I was doing websites and email funnels and sales pages and that kind of thing. I actually switched gears just in the past six months. I'm teaching all about writing and creativity. I have a membership community called Write Yourself Free. I love it so much. It's kind of an amalgam of personal development and writing, which are my two favorite things in the world. It's all about, how do we use the process of writing and creativity to have more self-expression and rediscover your purpose? Also, a lot of people in there are writing books or writing just for fun. I also have some entrepreneurs in there who are like, I need to write weekly blogs for my community. They just wanted a little bit of extra support in terms of, how do we come up with an idea? How do we stay inspired? That's what I do in there. Then I'm also offering writing coaching for people who are writing their first book. One of my clients right now is working on an amazing epic novel about Uganda. I can't wait until we get that finished and it gets to come out into the world too. It's really exciting.

Zibby: Didn't I see that you have something where Mondays at ten people all write together? Tell me more about that.

Brooke: Oh, my gosh, yes. Every Monday morning at ten AM Eastern, I do something called the writing circle. We literally just gather on Zoom. I do a ten-minute inspiration teaching at the beginning. Then we all sit on Zoom and write together for an hour. It's so much fun. People always say, I can't believe how much writing I can get done if I just don't get up. We all sit. Everyone leaves their video on for forty-five minutes. If you have to get up, obviously you can. People are always like, if I just focus for forty-five minutes, I can finish so much writing. It's really inspiring. I also set it up, to be totally honest, as accountability for me because I'm working my next book. I'm like, I need to just have this protected chunk of time once a week where I know I'm staying connected to it. Even while I'm doing all this launch work for Catchlight, at least once a week I know that I'm going to show up to this new book because these fifteen other people, whoever's going to show up that day, are going to come. I get to be there and hold space for them.

Zibby: I love that idea. I just love it. Are you all on mute?

Brooke: Yeah. We all mute ourselves for the forty-five minutes. Then at the end, we come back together. I usually have a question to wrap it up and people can chime in if they want to. The fun thing is, you don't have to come every week. You just come whenever you're free. Zibby, if you ever want to come join us.

Zibby: I really might.

Brooke: I'll send you the link.

Zibby: I am totally not kidding. That's awesome. I'm thinking, what do I usually do Mondays at ten o'clock? Is it free?

Brooke: Totally free forever. It'll be free forever because I just love doing it so much.

Zibby: That is awesome. That's a really great resource. It seems like, what would forty-five minutes do? They add up.

Brooke: Forty-five minutes every single week. I've been working on this new book not for very long, but I have twenty-five or thirty pages already. Right now, I'm only doing it that once a week, pretty much. That's pretty much what I've got. It adds up.

Zibby: What is your new book about?

Brooke: My new book is called The Apothecary of Stories. It's a little bit like The Alchemist in that it's sort of like a pilgrim's progress style. It's about a journey, but it's very symbolic. It's an allegory. That was the word I was looking for. It's this allegorical journey. There's things happening out in the world, but most of it is happening underneath. That's as much as I will explain, but I am kind of obsessed with it. I'm really excited to keep unspooling it as we go along.

Zibby: Your enthusiasm is so awesome. It's really great to hear. I feel like so many people are like, if you can do anything besides write, do it. You're like, no, I did. I'm the writing cheerleader of all time. [laughs]

Brooke: This is actually a pet peeve of mine. Part of what I teach in Write Yourself Free is that writing can be fun. I know that culturally we have this mindset that it's the most terrible thing in the world and the greatest writers drank themselves to death, which is actually true. A lot of writers have. I want to reclaim that for people that think it has to be, first of all, this super dry, intellectual exercise that's only open to people who have an advanced degree. I don't believe that at all. Even though I do have an advanced degree, I don't believe that at all. I think anyone can be a writer if you sit down and write. I also think that it can be fun and exciting and doesn't have to be horrific. [laughs]

Zibby: That's great. It's just awesome. If people want to join your writing circle, how should they do that?

Brooke: I can send you a link if you want to put it, if you have show notes -- do you have show notes, or not?

Zibby: Kind of. I have a little description. I'll try to remember that.

Brooke: Totally fine. People can go to my website, which is brookeadamslaw.com. It's just my full name. At the top, there's a little bar that says "Come write live with me." You just click that, and you can sign up. You'll get a reminder every Monday. Again, you can opt out at any time. You can also just show up whenever you want. It's not like you have to come every week.

Zibby: I know you're the marketing person and all, but you should, eventually if you build that up enough, you could get advertisers who are either pitching different books or people selling writing-type things or programs. You could sell ads, something, or sponsors.

Brooke: I like this sponsor idea.

Zibby: Maybe you could monetize it somehow for a -- not that I'm good at that at all, but just saying. Maybe. [laughs]

Brooke: Sounds fun. Thank you. Thank you for that idea. I love it.

Zibby: You've already shared so much advice for aspiring authors. I feel like that's what this entire conversation has been, but I always ask it at the end. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

Brooke: Yes. There's a couple things. What I always say is, if you have a desire to write, I believe that it's a calling to write. I have students come to me all the time and they're like, who do I think I am to write? Who would ever want to read what I have to say? What I say to them is, listen, there are millions of people who never think about writing. It never enters their consciousness. The fact that it has entered your consciousness and you're really interested in doing it means that you're supposed to do it in some capacity, so just do it. Just jump in. The other piece is, I always say that the act of writing is what makes you a writer. I know plenty of people who have an MFA degree who have never written again. They wrote their thesis, whether it was a book of poems or the first hundred pages of a novel, and then that was it for them. They never kept it up. I believe so strongly that the act of writing is what makes you a writer as opposed to the book deal or the degree or the accolades or any of that. We can all claim the title of writer if that's what you want to be doing. All you have to do is sit down and write. You can start by showing up at ten AM for the writing circle.

Zibby: That's so cool. I'm totally going to check that out. I love it. That's great. You're right. So many people don't want to use that word to describe themselves because it seems pretentious or if I don't have six published novels, how can I say I'm a writer? Meanwhile, all I've been doing all day is writing. [laughs]

Brooke: You're a writer, totally.

Zibby: It's also like how they say people who are worried they might be alcoholics, people who aren't alcoholics don't usually sit around worrying about that.

Brooke: That's a really good point.

Zibby: It doesn't cross your consciousness, sort of like what you're saying with writers. My kids, they don't like to write. I'm like, "Let's write. Don't you want to write about what you're feeling?" They're like, "No." I'm like, "What? Why not?" [laughs]

Brooke: You're like, not everyone processes their life by writing? I'm the same way. I'm trying to get my four-year-old -- I'm like, "Don't you want to draw or practice your letters?" He's like, "No, I don't want to do that at all." I'm like, okay, we're very different. I remember as a four-year-old, bugging my mom to dot out my name so I could trace it. Even then, I was like, writing is everything. He's like, "I don't want to do that."

Zibby: That's why this podcast is so much fun for me. All these people, they're all my people. We were all reading as kids and writing in journals and diaries. Not all. Everybody has different journeys.

Brooke: I was totally that kid.

Zibby: That same mentality and approach to it. Gosh, I wish I could sort out my life without writing, if I could just instantly do it in my head. Maybe other people just don't have their lives sorted out at all. [laughter]

Brooke: It's not even, for me, sorting out because I don't know if my life ever feels sorted out. I'm just a gibbering idiot if I can't process via writing. I can't even compute to anyone what I'm thinking or express myself in any kind of way.

Zibby: I didn't mean to say, either, that my life was in any resolved or that I could check it off the list or anything. I'm like, I don't know what I want to do. Then I can sit down and write. I'm like, oh, I totally know what I want to do. These four things are making me choose something else.

Brooke: I can so relate to that.

Zibby: Brooke, thank you so much. This has been so fun. I hope I get to meet you in real life at some point when we go back to normal.

Brooke: I would love that.

Zibby: I'm excited for your whole launch team effort. I might just show up and surprise you on these writing circle days. That sounds like a good call.

Brooke: I love it. I'm going to DM you the link on Instagram.

Zibby: Okay, please do.

Brooke: Thank you so much. This was really fun.

Zibby: Bye.

Brooke: Bye.

Nicholas Sparks, THE RETURN

Zibby Owens: Hi. How are you?

Nicholas Sparks: I'm doing fantastic. Yourself?

Zibby: I'm good. Thank you.

Nicholas: Where are you?

Zibby: I'm in New York. This is my library/home office.

Nicholas: Wow. Is this in your apartment?

Zibby: It's in my apartment, yes.

Nicholas: I love it. I love all the books. I have books behind me too.

Zibby: I see that. Yours look awesome. I like how you have the little cages in case they're going to run away and escape.

Nicholas: All the books that you see here are actually my books, but they're my books in all sorts of different languages. Of course, I have, I don't know how many, twenty-plus or whatever, and they’ve all been translated a lot of times. Every book you see is actually mine, not that I can read them because they're in foreign languages.

Zibby: [laughs] That's so cool. I love that. Wow. How neat to have a library all of your own writing. Very inspiring. Thanks for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." This is such an honor to talk to you. I've read so many of your books. The Return is so great. I've been reading it every night as my kids are going to bed. It's fantastic. Thank you for all the content that you've put out into world.

Nicholas: You're welcome.

Zibby: Can you tell listeners who aren't familiar yet with The Return, what inspired you to write this book? What was really the main premise of it for you?

Nicholas: The initial thought for the novel -- you have to have an initial thought. I wanted to do a story with a theme of love and mystery. I hadn’t done that for a long time. The last time I did that I think was in a novel called A Bend in the Road. I've written other themes since then. I've done epic love like The Longest Ride or Love and Danger, like The Guardian and Safe Haven. I've done everlasting love in Every Breath. This time, I wanted to go back to love and mystery. Of course, I wanted to make it as different as I could than my previous attempt. Once you start with that, your next question is, what's the mystery? I realized, what if there's a guy and his grandfather died and his grandfather said some things that just didn't make sense? That, of course, leads to, well, who is this person? Once you have that down, the primary element I wanted to explore was the concept of the aftermath of trauma and how people react when something terrible happens in their own life. The characters in this novel, without giving things away, have all experienced a trauma. They all react in different ways while trying to do the best they can. I wanted to explore that, perhaps, because like everyone, I've had trauma in my own life. I think it's part of the universal human experience. That makes it something that everyone can relate to. As always, I did my best to create characters who, even if they weren’t necessarily doing what you would have done, you understand why they're doing what they're doing. All of those two themes, the aftermath of trauma and a little mystery, came together. Little by little, the story came into place.

Zibby: Wow. I feel like your main character here, though, has had more trauma than most. First of all, everything with his experience being a surgeon in the medical hospital and the PTSD that you write so well about in the story, but also his family history, it's one thing after another. The poor guy, it's amazing he can even get out of bed in the morning. It's great to then explore because you do have to get out of bed. No matter how much baggage you have, the days always keep coming, if you're lucky. How do you deal with that? How do you put one foot in front of the other when you've lost your ear and just all this stuff?

Nicholas: He, of course, didn't hop up the next day. That's part of his journey. First, he got really good at Grand Theft Auto. [laughs]

Zibby: Yes, I liked that.

Nicholas: He got really good at Grand Theft Auto and drank too much until his girlfriend left him. Then he said, hmm, maybe I better start changing things.

Zibby: I was like, should I tell my son who's obsessed with GTA that it's actually in a book that I'm reading? I don't know. [laughs]

Nicholas: Of course. He'll say, "See Mom, it's helpful. It's therapeutic."

Zibby: Exactly. I can't give him any more excuses to play video games, so I don't think I'm going to bring it up. Actually, one thing that I found so interesting in your book that I feel like doesn't come up as often, I was trying to rack my brain for other examples, is really exploring that relationship between a man and his own therapy. I feel like it happens a lot with women. You hear of women and their therapists. It's just not as common. The relationship between Bowen and Trevor, it really courses throughout the book and deepened your understanding of Trevor and where he was coming from and even gave the reader some good, helpful, therapeutic tips for your life. Tell me about developing that relationship in the story.

Nicholas: Of course, there still is a stigma with mental health. There are those who, they have an automatic negative view toward therapy. Part of me wants to blow up that kind of thinking because I think that for some people in certain situations therapy can be very beneficial. I think that a lot of people who don't believe in the concept of therapy, or believe in it as long as it's not them because they're fine, don't necessarily understand the evolution of therapy. Really, really long story short, Sigmund Freud started psychoanalysis, and this is what most people think that a lot of therapy is. It's someone laying on the couch and talking about their dreams and this and that. That was very prominent for a long time. That's what therapy was. Eventually, therapists and patients learned that knowing the root cause of something doesn't necessarily help you change it. I know the root cause of why I eat too much ice cream and that's why I gain weight. Here's why. It tastes good. Knowing the reason why won't necessarily help you. A lot of therapy has changed from trying to understand why to what you do. What can you do in that instant when you have an urge for ice cream? Of course, you can substitute any issue that someone's having. What can I do if I get angry? What can I do if my hands begin to shake, as in the case of Trevor?

There's things you can do. It's cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavior therapy. They give you a list. Let's do some certain things in those moments. Then rest of your life, let's try to be as healthy as you possibly can. You exercise. You eat right. It's all the advice your mother gave you: exercise, eat right, sleep right, avoid mood-altering substances to a great extent. Then in these moments, what can you do when you get angry? I can turn and walk away. I can try to reframe the situation. There's things you do in that moment. That's really what I wanted to explore. It's to give an idea for those who haven't had therapy or who don't know what it is or have a negative view of it, why it can be so beneficial. Trevor knows why he's messed up. He needs to know what to do to not be angry at a Home Depot when someone cuts him off in line. He has to know what to do when his hands begin to shake. That's really the therapy that he's most interested in because doing the right thing in situations that are challenging leads you to becoming a very healthy version of yourself.

Zibby: That's true. I think I need to remember that as I look in the freezer at night. [laughs]

Nicholas: Look for the ice cream. Knowing why you want it, that's not going to help.

Zibby: It doesn't help at all. I want it because I just want it. Now I'm going to have it. Or because I'm angry. When you were listing the behaviors that anger should elicit, I guess eating is not really the best coping mechanism. I'll leave that for somebody else's therapy. It's so funny you say this too because I know it's so dependent on where in the country you live or who you're surrounded by, how people feel about therapy and all the different views. I was a psychology major. I'm from New York City. Therapy here is just what you do. It's so common. I know there are so many other places and even different religions or different cultures where it's just not as accepted. It's great to have a book like this which so normalizes it and explains it clearly and carefully and calmly and outlines all the benefits. That's awesome.

Nicholas: Thank you.

Zibby: I read about how your mother is really responsible for all of your success by getting you to start writing at a very early age. You were dabbling in all sorts of other professions at that time. You were so young, but didn't really see this coming, necessarily, for yourself. Can you tell me a little more about getting your start and how you started in pharmaceutical sales and selling dental devices or whatever you were doing and ended up being you?

Nicholas: My mom originally got me into writing. I was nineteen. At that time, I was very into track and field. I was very competitive. I was on scholarship. It was my world. I had dreams of being an Olympic gold medalist. That's all I wanted. I got injured during my freshman year. Over the summer, I was just miserable. I couldn't train. I had all this excess energy. I was imagining all my competitors getting better. I was falling behind. It was emotionally, mentally, physically -- I was just not in my right head. My mom knew it. She said, "Look, don't just pout. Do something." I said, "What?" She said, "I don't know. Go write a book." So I did. I wrote a novel. I was nineteen. It took me about six weeks. It was terrible. I'm not being false modesty there. It was a nineteen-year-old writing his very first novel and taking six weeks to do it. I learned that I liked stories. I, of course, never thought I could make a living at it. Finish up college, get my degree, don't get a job right away, so I write a second novel. That never gets published. I say, what am I going to do? I experiment with some different jobs for a while, find out what's calling me, what's speaking to me. Then when I was twenty-eight, I kind of had an early midlife crisis and said, what can I do in the evening while keeping my job? I had bills and things. I sat down and wrote The Notebook. It's kind of like a start and a stop, and then a start and then a stop, and then a start, and here I am.

Zibby: Wow. I heard that -- I shouldn't say I heard. I read that an agent just found it in their slush pile and brought it to the top and that's how you got discovered.

Nicholas: Yeah, pretty much. I sent letters out to a bunch of agencies. Someone pulled it out of the non-solicited query pile and said, "Hey, take a look at this." That agent read the letter, asked for my book, read it in a couple of days. Her name is Theresa Park. She's still my agent to this day.

Zibby: Wow, I love that. That's so encouraging, too, for all the people who submit blindly that it can happen. It can be a smash hit and all the rest. You mentioned earlier that your own trauma sort of informs your writing. I read that your little sister died of a brain tumor. I'm so sorry to have heard that. Is that one of the things that motivates your writing? If so, I was hoping maybe you could speak to that if you feel comfortable.

Nicholas: There was a period there of about seven years where there was one loss after another. My mother died in a horseback riding accident. My father died in a car accident. Meanwhile, my sister's having this brain tumor. Then she eventually passes away. This was all in a very brief period.

Zibby: I'm so sorry.

Nicholas: Certainly, when you get hit with these traumas, you go through it as best you can. I had children. I had bills. I still had responsibilities. It was challenging. I found that I reacted differently to each of these traumas because of my age, because of where I was, because of the addition of additional responsibilities. They certainly inform my writing, particularly when I write about grief or loss or trauma such as in The Rescue. That was one of the big things, as I mentioned earlier, that I really wanted to explore. You've got three characters that have trauma. They all react in different ways just as I reacted in three different ways after each of my own traumas. In each of those cases, even though I reacted differently, I was just trying to do my best at that time to negotiate the cavalcade of emotion that I was feeling while putting one step in front of the other. It certainly informs my writing. It's led to direct inspiration. Message in a Bottle was directly inspired by my father after the death of my mother. Walk to Remember was inspired by my sister. It's informed or inspired specific stories. At the same time, there's elements there that have woven their way into each and every one of my novels as well.

Zibby: I'm so sorry about all that you've been through. How, as a dad, do you talk about loss and grief to your own kids? How do you help them make sense of the things that have happened in your family?

Nicholas: It's a difficult question to answer. Even though my kids, they range in age from twenty-eight to eighteen, they’ve suffered loss too, not necessarily their parents or their siblings like me. In twenty-eight years, we've lost pets. They’ve had friends who've passed away unexpectedly. In the end, I think the most important thing you can do is to validate their feelings. You listen to them. You're empathetic to them. You're with them in that moment. Then you don't necessarily try to help. You validate. Someone says, "I feel so sad. I can't stop crying." You don't say, "Well, death is a part of life." It's not going to help them. What you do is say, "I know you do. I have no doubt that it feels absolutely awful. Part of you might wonder if you'll ever stop crying." Anyone will respond to that, "Yeah, that's how I feel." What that does is it opens up the ability to communicate on a deeper level. The most important thing is to validate. You say, "Look, I get it. I've been through it. It's the hardest thing ever." That's whether it's children or whether it's friends or whether it's siblings or whether it's anyone. When someone is hurting, empathy, active listening, and then really responding to what specifically they're saying and not trying to fix it, just letting them know you fully understand what they're going through.

Zibby: You should've been a therapist. [laughter]

Nicholas: Perhaps. I've had a lot of children.

Zibby: You've done fine for yourself. Not to say this was not the right career for you. It's fine, but I'm just saying. You obviously have a gift in this area as well. It's a fallback career.

Nicholas: Fallback, right. I'm hopeful some of that went through The Return.

Zibby: Absolutely. When you write, what is your writing process like? How long does each book usually take you? Where do you like to write? Is it somewhere else in that room with the beautiful books?

Nicholas: Yeah, I write here. I write in the kitchen. I write in another room near the kitchen. Then I have a second office off the gym, much more informal. I sometimes write there. I can write anywhere. I can write on airplanes, in hotel rooms, and I have. Just generally, I write at home because I'm at home a lot. I pick a spot based on my mood, essentially. Novels take about six months to write and then probably another ten weeks to edit. Much of that ten weeks is not hovering over the keyboard. You send it up to them. Then they take two and a half, three weeks, and then they send back suggested changes. You work really hard for a week. Then you send it up again. You wait another three weeks. Then you make those changes. It follows that. Then after that, you're a good chunk into the year. The rest of the time is spent on tour and then conceiving the next novel. Then you start all over again.

Zibby: How has the pandemic been, your first tour throughout this new world that we're in?

Nicholas: It will certainly be a different tour than I've done in the past. Of course, we're very concerned about safety. I certainly don't want to do things that would make people feel exposed. There's a lot of feelings and very few people who want to get this thing. What can we do? Even though I will be going out and I think it's important to support local bookstores and things like that, it's all designed with safety in mind. We'll see how it goes. I think I'm going to six or seven different bookstores. We're limiting the lines. Not that we're limiting people who can get signed books, but they're ticketed. Only some people come then. It's spread throughout the day. I sign the books in advance. If we take a picture, there's Plexiglas between us, everything you have to do so that people will feel safe. That's the most important thing on this tour, is to do it in the safest way possible.

Zibby: How about the last six months while the pandemic has been raging? Have you been working on new books during this time?

Nicholas: Yeah, I finished another novel. It's now in the editing process. I've done that. I've started another novel. Just about done with that one as well. Workwise, it's been fairly productive. Like everyone, COVID has hit home. My daughter had it. She went through that whole experience. It's affected me as much as it's affected anyone, very limited. I've been largely sheltering at home. On the plus side, if there is one, I've worked from home for years. It was my normal thing. That part has not changed.

Zibby: You've written dozens of books. How do you keep coming up with new characters, new plotlines? You're like, I just wrote another novel. It sounds so causal for you. Whereas some people, it takes them their whole lives to come up with one novel. How does it work for you? Is it just the engine and once you go, the creativity keeps going? How does it work for you?

Nicholas: It was interesting. When I first started in 1996, that's what you were supposed to do. The Notebook was published in 1996. At that time, authors wrote a book a year. If you wanted to be a successful author, you had to figure it out. It's a little bit different now. Authors, whether you're Dan Brown or you're Gillian Flynn or Dennis Lehane, for instance, all excellent, excellent writers, and I love their work, they don't necessarily put out a novel a year. Back when I was starting, that's what you had to do. I figured that's the only way to do it. You get in the habit of doing that, and so I've done that. Once you reach this stage, my goal is always the same as it has been since the very beginning, which is to write the best book possible, one that feels original to the reader, one that strikes them as something entirely new that they haven't read before even while knowing it'll be set in North Carolina, even while knowing there's romantic elements.

How on earth do you make it different? I think about, what haven't I done? What haven't I done recently? We talked about the theme of mystery. Hadn’t done that in a long time. That was one of the original thoughts in this book. Let me have a mystery that leads to all sorts of questions. What is the mystery? Then I said, what really haven't I explored? Three different reactions to trauma, brand-new idea, nothing I've ever written about before. I've done it with individual characters, but not every character in that novel. I said, oh, okay, so here's something I haven't done in a long time, something I have never done before. This is all new. This is all original. Then from there, you just keep asking yourself what-if questions regarding, what if the character's fifty? What if the character's forty? What if the character's thirty? Then what happens to the story? What is the mystery? What if this? What if that? What if this? Then you just keep walking all the way through until the story forms in your mind and you're ready to begin writing.

Zibby: Actually, I found myself getting a bit impatient really wanting to know what the backstory was for Natalie and why she was looking sad all the time. I was like, what is going on with her? When are we finding out? I can't wait to know anymore. All of them, actually, but hers in particular. What types of books do you like to read in your spare time?

Nicholas: [Audio cuts outs] traditional best sellers. You have your classics. You have foreign literature. You have award-winning literature, different styles, poetry. I read that. That's probably about sixty percent of what I read. The other forty percent is nonfiction. I find that my own interests are drawn toward histories, and just obscure histories generally. I don't want big sweeping things. I do read those. I might read a book like Salt. It's the history of salt. Or Fermat's Enigma; it's basically the story of math or something like that. I'm also drawn toward biographies of people long since dead, and hardly ever political figures. So histories, biographies, a lot of sociology, books by Jon Krakauer, things like that, whether it's Missoula which discussed date rape on college campuses and the reality. It was set in Missoula, Montana. Modern sociology as well, I'm very interested in that.

Zibby: I know so many of your books have been made into movies. How are you feeling about the movie aspect of your work? Do you see it all cinematically as you're writing it? Do you really enjoy the adaptions of all the stories? What's your general takeaway from that element of your writing?

Nicholas: I always try to conceive a novel with the idea that it will be both a novel and a film. Then when I write, I only think about the novel. Then after the novel is written, I only think about the film. It's important to understand that the nature of Hollywood has been changing over the last ten years. International markets are much larger than they used to be for the box office. Streaming has become much more evident. Novels are now being adapted into limited series or extended series. There's a lot of changes. Then of course, in comes COVID-19. People aren't sure when and where they can start filming. There's challenges associated with that. For right now, it's a little tricky to navigate. We'll see what happens.

Zibby: Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Last question.

Nicholas: The best advice is to read a lot. One of the standard jokes that I ever say when I speak in front of a crowd and get asked this question is -- they say, what advice do you have for aspiring writers? I say, I'll tell you what helped me. When I was a kid, I watched a lot of TV. [laughs] I mean that. There's things you can learn from television. There's things you can learn from film. There's things you can learn from novels. I certainly was a very avid reader. If you watch television, you'll note that particularly every show you watch -- I'm talking more about network television, but even on streaming. It's just slightly different. They're really good at ending before the commercial or at the end of the show with a bit of a cliffhanger that makes you want to go and see what happens next. Of course, anyone familiar with my writing, I try to make it almost impossible to stop reading at the end of a chapter because you have to know what happens next. Where do you learn that? You learn that more in television and film than you would, for instance, in a classic novel by Flaubert or someone like that, or Proust. Read. Understand story. Stories can be understood.

Then I think the best thing is to figure out what you really want to write. There's a difference. Do I want to write something that may or may not get published? That's a different standard than, I want to write something that will a hundred percent be published; which is a different standard than, I want something that's going to be a best seller; which is a different standard than, I want to be wonderfully, critically reviewed in The New York Times and on NPR or things like that. They're all different, so to be clear on what you intend to write. Then finally, if you're a young writer, whatever you do, don't write about a young character. Everyone says write what you know, but the thing that happens when you're young is that you think all of your thoughts are original. Really, everyone's had them before. For my first novel, The Notebook, my main character was eighty years old.

Zibby: Wow. This has been a particularly great episode for my son because now in addition to GTA and playing video games you have said that watching TV is really good for you. [laughter] I guess I'm going to have to play it for him. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for sharing your personal history and for The Return, which was so great. Thank you.

Nicholas: Thank you very much.

Zibby: Have a great day.

Nicholas: You too.

Zibby: Buh-bye.

Nicholas: Bye.

Mikki Daughtry and Rachael Lippincott, ALL THIS TIME

Zibby Owens: I had such a great time getting to know Mikki Daughtry and Rachael Lippincott who are the number-one New York Times best-selling team of Five Feet Apart which was made into a hit movie. Now they’ve come back with their second joint novel called All This Time which was absolutely beautiful and a tearjerker -- I didn't see the twists coming, which always makes me feel like a dufus -- but is fantastic. Mikki is a really well-renowned screenwriter and is actually writing the new Dirty Dancing movie which is super exciting because I think Dirty Dancing -- I saw it in the theaters like twelve times when it came out. I'm pretty much obsessed. Rachel is hard at work on her third novel and used to be an athlete and just got married to her wife. Her pictures are on Instagram and they're beautiful, as we talked about. Anyway, I hope you enjoy our episode.

It's so great to be talking to you, ladies. Thank you for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Mikki Daughtry: Thanks for having us. Zibby, I wanted to say I'm sorry about your -- I follow you, and I'm sorry about your mother-in-law. That is a shame.

Rachael Lippincott: I saw that as well. I'm so sorry to hear that.

Zibby: Thank you. It's been a crazy time. I just started doing podcasts again. Now I feel like I can at least have my old shred of my personality back and life goes on type of thing, not that I don't think about them all the time and write about them all the time. At least I can put on a happy face and chat and all the rest. Thank you. I appreciate your saying something. On to your book, All This Time. First of all, so good. Did not see any of the twists and turns coming. I hate when I have to admit that because I feel like I read so many books that I should know. I should be prepared. Oh, my gosh, what a heart-rendering story. I'm so glad I got to read it early.

Mikki: Thank you for reading it.

Zibby: For people who don't know what All This Time is about, can you just tell them a little more about the story and also, following your huge success with Five Feet Apart, what it was like embarking on another project?

Mikki: I'm hesitant to say what it's about. You know why. It's about love and loss and how we overcome that and the people we find to help us through and how dreams play into that and how the things that we want can become reality or reality may not be what it seems in the sense that when we lose something, we're caught in this maelstrom of pain and sorrow and guilt sometimes. It really sometimes takes a helping hand to get out of that. On occasion, that helping hand becomes the person you were always meant to be with. That's really all I can say without grenade-ing most of it.

Rachael: That was something that really drew me to this story, and also Five Feet Apart in a way, was the exploration of grief and the twists and turns that that journey in particular takes. I absolutely loved that bit when I read the screenplay for Mikki.

Mikki: The way it came about in this sense was -- Five Feet Apart, it was really the strangest, the way that we got the book written. It was exact opposite of what normally happens, which is there's a book and then they buy the movie rights and there's a movie. In this case, there was a movie that was being made. They were like, this would probably make a really good YA novel. Let's reverse engineer it. That's how that came about. When Rachael came on board, she adapted the screenplay from Five Feet Apart. We were already filming. In this case, it all happened -- Justin Baldoni, the director of Five Feet Apart, had a friend, Claire Wineland, who had CF. She told him, "I can't ever be with someone with CF, someone who would understand me, because we're not allowed to touch each other or even get within six feet of each other." That really sparked with him, an idea for a story. Then I wrote the screen for that. Rachael adapted it. Justin found me through the screenplay I had written, this story. That's what happened.

When Five Feet Apart was such a success, we were like, what would be a really good sister book to this? What would be a good companion piece kind of thing? I really feel like the tone is the same. It's a similar feel. It's definitely a similar genre. It's got all the same hallmarks as Five Feet Apart, but it's totally different. It's like your cousin who looks just like you but is nothing like you. It's kind of like that. This is the script that he read of mine that made him want to hire me to write Five Feet Apart and to come up with that story. It felt like the perfect companion piece, and so Rachael and I -- I was like, "Hey, you want to do another one? Here's another script. Do you want to take it?" The funny thing about this one is, honestly, it was an adult script. The original piece, my original work, was an adult script. It wasn't a YA. It was a pretty easy shift, though, to rejigger it and to rebreak it to fit a YA format. You just age them down. Their concerns are different. I can tell you a lot about the original. It’s heavier. It's much more painful. You can see, Zibby, having read this, where if you age that up and give them a family, where it goes from there.

Zibby: I don't think I can handle that. [laughs]

Mikki: Right. It's a whole different -- oh, we can't talk about it. If it were out, I could be, this is everything that happened. It came from there. Then I aged it down. I went back through the script and said, let's take some of this drama, not the drama, but let's take some of this adultness out of it and go for what are important to young people just starting their lives instead of people who are in their lives. That's how it came about. I am a chatty chatter, so you have to shut me down.

Zibby: No, it's good. The thing about this book that really hit me too is that I felt I could relate not only to the main characters, but also the mom.

Mikki: Oh, my god, I love her.

Zibby: That ages me somewhat. I'm forty-four, not like I'm ancient.

Mikki: I'm right there with you.

Zibby: I felt like her pain and the fact that she had lost her husband and her trying to -- your child's pain is almost worse than your own pain. Probably, it is worse than your own. It actually is, I should say. Her watching the pain that Kyle has to go through -- Kyle's my husband's name too, by the way.

Mikki: I saw that.

Zibby: That really got me too. You didn't go into it too much. You could just see by her actions, how she was feeling. It just broke my heart, the whole thing.

Mikki: Thanks. I really wanted there to be a family situation that wasn't the, oh, I hate my mother. That is a reality for a lot of people where they're constantly in that battle with their mother. I wasn't. There are relationships with teenagers who have really great relationships with their parents. I wanted to speak to that. His mother is not his problem. I didn't want that to be some kind of situation there where we're focused more on, he's fighting with her and he's trying to break away from her. He's lost what he thinks is the love of his life at the beginning of the book. I think I can say. It's on page three.

Rachael: I also think another element of that that really spoke to me was the fact that she is a single mother. They have this really deep connection because for so long it's just been the two of them, in a lot of ways, against the world, similar to Will in Five Feet Apart. I just loved that. He was suffering so much. You would see her at the door trying to connect to him, trying to find a way to open the dialogue back up like it used to be. I really just loved the portrayal of the single mother like my mom, fighting it out. You guys go through everything together. You always have her. You always have that connection, that person that is always in your court, always trying to think of your best interests, to help heal your heart however they can. That was really a cool part of the story for me too.

Zibby: It's so true. By the way, Rachael, I was looking at your Instagram. Your wedding pictures were so [indiscernible/laughter]. I just had to say, those dresses, oh, my gosh.

Rachael: Oh, gosh. Thank you so much. I'm still in a state of [indiscernible/crosstalk].

Zibby: [Indiscernible/crosstalk] that you can research somebody and know the most private moments.

Rachael: It's like I was there. No, I'm kidding. Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Zibby: I also really liked how Kyle is getting over a football injury. At one point, that's the worst thing he could ever possibly imagine could happen. Then life, what you think is the worst thing ever suddenly gets put into perspective and something even worse comes along. You're like, oh, gosh.

Rachael: You're like, this is rock bottom. Then it is not.

Zibby: Now this is a really big deal. I thought that was a big deal. I feel like injured athletes -- actually, my husband Kyle was an athlete as well. I guess he is an athlete, but he was in the professional tennis world for a long time. He used to play football and all this stuff. When he stopped, it was a whole big thing. What does an athlete do who's not really doing their thing anymore? I think there's not that much. I remember at the time I was like, "Let me find you some articles. Let me find you some books." I was googling. Come on. There are so many athletes out there this happens to. There must be a ton of literature. Of course, I'm more into fiction. It was just nice to see that here. I know it's just one injury, but just what happens when your dreams stop and it involves your body instead of just your mind. Tell me a little bit about choosing that.

Mikki: That was part of the aging down, actually, to turning it into a YA. What would be important to this guy? It's exactly like you said. I wanted to give him something that he thought was his life. He'd think, this is going to be it. This is forever. I've got it planned out. It's everything. He hinges every part of his personality and his worth on that. When that taken away from him, he turns to his girlfriend and kind of puts all that weight on her. We get to see, at the very beginning, what that weight has done to them. It was a big part of the aging it down for YA, to give him something that he thought was his whole world that he could lose in a shattering way and think, oh, my god, it's the end, it's over. We're like, oh, buddy, no. Oh, hun, no, no, no. There's a bigger world out there, and it gets a lot worse.

Rachael: That particular aspect spoke to me on two levels. One was on a very personal level. I was a huge athlete growing up. My freshman year of high school, I played three varsity sports. It was my thing. Then I had spinal fusion surgery going into my sophomore year. In my head, I was like, I can heal up. I could play junior year, maybe still get into college. Then I just had this huge crisis of conscience where I just could not play sports. I was healing. I was recovering. All of a sudden, I wasn't an athlete. My body wasn't necessarily my temple anymore. I kind of had to look around at my life and see what was still there, what was important to me, what I liked doing, when this huge aspect of my personality that was so big when I was thirteen, fourteen years old, what else there still was. Another element was back when I was in college, I wrote part of a manuscript that was about a boy who was in a really bad accident.

Mikki: Oh, you did? I didn't know that.

Rachael: Really? Yeah. He played football. We're just surprising everybody today.

Mikki: We say that, that things cross over sometimes. It's really weird. I didn't know that. I didn't know you wrote anything like that.

Rachael: I started writing a manuscript about a boy who was a football player who got into an accident. His entire life changed. He could no longer play the sport he loved.

Mikki: Totally [indiscernible] out of your head, then.

Rachael: When I read the manuscript, I was like, oh, this is it but way better. It panned out. It kind of felt like it was a character that I knew and a scenario that I understood a little bit of, so it was cool.

Zibby: Why did you originally have spinal fusion surgery?

Rachael: I had scoliosis. My spine was just not doing the thing it should've been doing. Just straightened it out.

Zibby: I guess with writing at least, unless your fingers are -- it's so different.

Mikki: Just don't break your fingers.

Zibby: Yeah, just don't break your fingers.

Mikki: Break everything else. Just don't break [indiscernible].

Zibby: How do you two work? How do you do it? Tell me your process, how the magic happened.

Mikki: This one is different. I have a full-time writing partner, Tobias Iaconis. I always want to call him eye-ack-onis now because my phone pronounces his name phonetically. One of these days, I'm going to literally say his name wrong. It's Tobias Iaconis. We write our screenplays together, not necessarily this one, but we do a lot of writing together. Rachael and I have worked, so far, only in the sense that I have given her a fully formed, fully fleshed-out screenplay with the dialogue and a lot of the prose. She adapts that. She's adapted that with Five Feet Apart and with this one. She's adapted those stories into the books. It's a little bit of a different process where we don't -- oh, sorry.

Zibby: Are you a part of the adaption, or do you just hand it off?

Rachael: She's a part, especially with this one, with All This Time, a huge part. With Five Feet Apart, it had just gone into production. I think a lot of that was her reshaping that screenplay. I would keep getting emails like blue edition or purple edition or pink edition as they started going into production. I think a lot more of that was her sending it to me. We obviously had long phone calls, especially at the beginning where she was telling me everything in detail. I would ask questions. I could always bounce everything off of her. Especially with All This Time, we had a conversation about it a couple days ago, actually, just talking about how she felt that the scenes were super detailed. It was almost already in book form at a lot of parts.

Mikki: Oh, I know what you're saying. I was like, what are you talking about? We were talking about when you get a production script, it's very lean on details. It's mostly dialogue because all of the set design, all that stuff, is taken out of it because they’ve done the work already. What I gave Rachael for All This Time was a very meaty -- I knew it was going to her and not into production. I knew it was going to her, so I was able to really give her a beefy, beefy script. It was kind of a quasi-script-novel-y thing.

Rachael: Somewhere in the middle, for sure. It isn't just a complete handover. I always have Mikki on call. She's looking through everything, commenting, changing, revising.

Mikki: Rachael does not get any sleep. It's just like, oh, my god, there she is again.

Zibby: Sorry if I'm a little slow on this. I'm sorry for the sirens also. This book, you said you started with the screenplay. Is this already in production?

Mikki: No. Lionsgate has bought the rights to the book for the movie. This started, like I said, from the original screenplay that was the adult version. Then I aged it down. When I aged it down, I filled in a lot of the stuff about what it would be. It was in chunks. I would be writing. The editor, Alexa, would come back and say, "Maybe there's some scenes that this could happen." I would write the screenplay scenes and then give them to Rachael, and she would adapt them. It's how we had our little wheels greased the way we worked together like two little cogs with Alexa cranking it.

Rachael: Definitely. I would get a draft back that would have notes from Alexa. Then I would also get additional scenes from Mikki as well that would just be additional parts of the story to fill out certain scenes, certain characters, certain backstories. It would be both at the same time and then integrating them together into the next draft that I would turn into both of them.

Zibby: Got it. Now that I finally have gotten this process down, so then when Five Feet Apart became a movie, were you a part of that, Mikki? You had written that screenplay.

Mikki: Oh, yes. I was on set. The funniest thing is when -- it was really close to production when they said, "Simon & Schuster wants to turn this into a book." As Rachael was saying, she got a script. Then I was on set. I would be like, oh, we're changing this scene right now. I wonder if Rachael has gotten to this scene yet. I would quickly text her and be like, "Rachael, Rachael, have you done this yet?" She's like, "I'm working on it right now." I'm like, "Stop! We're changing it." We get a lot of comments. They're like, oh, my god, the movie is so close to the book. We're like, well, yeah.

Rachael: For a reason.

Mikki: I was like, "Don't write that yet. Here's what happening." I would shoot her off some pages.

Rachael: I think that answered your question.

Zibby: I have it all straight. [laughs] I saw that you're already working on a third one. Are you doing that together?

Mikki: Rachael. Nope.

Rachael: I'm working on a third book. I can't talk about it as of yet. I'm currently working on it. I'm in my second draft of it. I'm deep in the edits. Deadline is coming up. That one's just a solo one. Mikki is also working on --

Mikki: -- I'm back in movie world.

Rachael: Many a thing.

Zibby: What are you working on in the movie world?

Mikki: Dirty Dancing.

Zibby: No way!

Mikki: Yeah, the sequel with Jennifer Grey. I can't say anything, obviously, about it. That's really exciting. Then Tobias and I have a children's horror movie at Netflix that's going into production in about a month. They're setting up in Toronto right now, building the sets and hiring everyone. That’ll go, hopefully. You never know what's going to happen. Hopefully, that keeps trucking along. I shifted seamlessly right back into my movie writing, screenwriting. I'm like, what is that word? [laughter]

Rachael: What's that thing that I do?

Mikki: Screenwriting. Maybe another novel for me at some point that I write. We'll see. Right now, I'm firmly entrenched in making movies.

Zibby: That's so neat. Did you already finish writing Dirty Dancing too?

Mikki: Working on the second draft right now.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, wow.

Mikki: I don't know if I'm supposed to say that. I don't think it's any secret that we're writing. We're writing.

Zibby: They announced it was going to be a movie. Someone has to write it. I'm sure they probably linked to you somewhere. Jennifer Grey has become a friend of Kyle's and mine.

Mikki: She's amazing.

Zibby: I met her through another friend. Then we've all gotten together in LA. This is so great. Not close friend, obviously, but I'm going to have to find a way to barge myself onto that set. I've never really been on a movie set before.

Mikki: Oh, my god. Do it. Do it. Do it. It'll be a little bit. I'm not sure when they're planning on shooting. There's a ton still to do. Yes, you should get your ticket now.

Zibby: If people ever are out and about and on sets again.

Mikki: If that happens. I know. They're doing it. I don't know how much you know about it. In Toronto, and rightfully so, they're being very, very careful. They fly you in. They're not letting many people in. You have to stay in strict quarantine for two weeks. If you're in a hotel, you can't come out of your hotel room. The police come by every day to check if you're still there. This is what I've heard. I know that it's true because they're working on [indiscernible] up there. If you're caught out at all, it's a $750,000 fine per incident.

Zibby: What?

Mikki: Per incident. Don't fuck around. Canada's not playing, but they're filming up there.

Rachael: $750,000. Ooh, I'm sorry.

Mikki: Per incident.

Rachael: Oh, my gosh.

Zibby: [Indiscernible] the people who made that up. They're sitting there. How did we make?

Rachael: That's a scary amount.

Mikki: Let's make it prohibitive. Don't you dare walk out. It's like if you walk out of your room to get a soda in those two weeks. Then once your two-week quarantine is up -- like I said, this is what I've heard from them setting up for [indiscernible]. When your two-week quarantine is up, you're out. You're out and about. You're part of the community. You wear your mask, but it's more lenient. You go about work and your life and stuff.

Zibby: That's amazing. Good luck with that.

Mikki: I'm not going. We're staying home for this one. We're skipping this one. Normally, we would go. It's very prohibitive when we're working on this other -- we're working on Dirty Dancing. It's a lot of restrictions to not be able to move freely and do the work that we need to do otherwise.

Zibby: What kind of books do you two like to read in your spare time? Maybe you don't like to read.

Mikki: No, I'm totally a reader.

Zibby: I don't want to make any assumptions.

Mikki: I'm a writer who doesn't read. I'm sure they are there. I love British novels. I find that I really tend to lean toward Australia. I love Liane Moriarty. She's so much fun. Anything she writes, I'm in it for a fun little romp. Then I love Kazuo Ishiguro. He's probably my favorite, and Julian Barnes. Those two British guys, I can't. I can't even. It feels so small, but it's so huge. The fact that they are able to have such an impact in such a realistically grounded world that they write about, it's like you're there. Remains of the Day, just stop. I love Gabriel García Márquez, obviously. One Hundred Years of Solitude, how are you a writer and not married to that book? That's the epic masterpiece of all time. Those are the kind of things I read when I read. Then I read a lot of 1930s and '40s novels. It's really fun because it's of the time. The World's Illusion is a really good one. It's very political. I really love it, set in the times of industry workers and how they were treated. It's a narrative. I like stuff like that. I'm kind of a weirdo. I live in the past, for sure.

Rachael: I read all different kinds of things. I'm a huge fan of Nina LaCour. She's probably my favorite YA author. I talk about her a lot. Her book, We Are Okay, is absolutely my favorite. I really love it. A lot of times there's a conversation between plot-based and character-based stories. I just love that. It's essentially just a book of a girl alone in her room drinking tea and reflecting on life and grief and all these other things. It's a very quiet book, but so much happens. She's just so talented at saying exactly what needs to be said and nothing more and nothing less. I just love that. Oh, man, other books that I really love. I love Laura Taylor Namey's book coming out later this year, A Cuban Girl’s Guide to Tea and Tomorrow. Absolutely fell in love with that. It's wonderful. It's also set in the UK, in Britain. That's a really great read. I'm also a huge fan of mysteries. My favorite is Agatha Christie. You turned my brain on to the British thing, so I'm going to just keep going on it. I really love the Miss Marple mysteries. That's classic, feel-good read, especially during the craziness of the past few months. I've been checking into a couple of my favorite ones of those. I also really love the BBC episodes that they did on them. Those are probably my favorite.

Zibby: What advice would you guys have for aspiring authors or screenwriters?

Mikki: That's the question. Work your ass off. Don't expect any favors. If you get a favor, be grateful. I always say this, once you start getting there, please don't buy your own hype. It's easy to think that you did it by yourself and to think that it's all you and you're so important, you're so vital. Yeah, maybe, but a lot of cooks go into the kitchen. A lot of cooks are in the kitchen. A lot of the flavor, whether -- I can only speak for myself. I hate saying that ubiquitous you. I can speak for myself that at the end of the day, I've done the work, but it's everybody around me and their opinions that I trust and respect and love. They're all in there. The stew is better with a lot of flavor, if that makes sense. I take everybody's salt and pepper, and I throw it in there. I'm like, let's see what happens. I definitely would say, and I say this pretty much every time I'm asked, if you're doing it alone, don't be afraid to reach out and let people help you. Even a bad note is a good note in a way because it's going to expose something that may be missing. They may not be telling you in the right way. It's something that we call in the business, the note behind the note, which is, I really wish he did this here. That's not really the issue. The issue is something's missing in that moment that makes them wish for something different. That's what you have to get to. Without that bad note, you wouldn't look at yourself and say, oh, there's a hole here. Rambling again. I write much better than I speak, just let me say.

Zibby: So do I.

Rachael: That was perfect. I feel like I shouldn't even go know after that, honestly.

Mikki: What do you have for new and up-and-coming writers? That's kind of where we're different. I'm in my thing. You're just getting in.

Rachael: That's a really good question. Something that was really big was just -- you aspire to be a writer. You always dream of it. It was really hard for me to prioritize, especially when you don't have a book deal or you don't have a screenplay that's been optioned by film or something. It's really hard to find time and give yourself the time to devote yourself to this passion and devote yourself to sitting down and putting words on the page. I think it's so important that you carve out that time and that space if this is what you love to do. Really, just let yourself have the freedom to write. Let yourself have the freedom to put things on a page and explore the stories that you really want to tell. That was always really hard, especially when I was starting out, just giving myself the time and what I loved doing, the opportunity to really work.

Mikki: I can speak to that, what you're saying, Rachael, just a bit for screenwriters. If you're just coming up and you're trying to, like Rachael said, find the time and find the motivation to stick with it, find a screenwriting group. I was in a screenwriting group, Twin Bridges. It was everything to be held accountable for pages. We'd go and we read our pages. We read each other's work. We're commenting and critiquing and helping and giving notes and learning very much about the craft. Joe Bratcher ran the class, Joe and Judy, his wife. They taught at UCLA. A very, very integral part of my getting started professionally was to have the motivation and the responsibility of showing up with the pages I said I would show up with, and then learning. That's where I got that whole "it takes a village" kind of thing because everybody piles on and tells you what they think. You're fielding ideas. Do it. For screenwriters, that would be. I would say if you are looking for something to hold your feet to the fire, get yourself in a writing group.

Rachael: I would agree totally a hundred percent with that. Also, you have this space. Forming a writing group is really important because then you not only have somebody to bounce your ideas off of and grow from, but you also have this accountability, like what you just talked about. If you show up for one of your weekly get-togethers and you don't have anything on the page, you're going to look a little foolish.

Mikki: You're the asshole.

Rachael: That's really sound advice.

Zibby: Amazing. Thank you, ladies, so much.

Mikki: Thank you, Zibby.

Zibby: I can't wait until your next book and, Mikki, your movie. I, embarrassingly, have not watched Five Feet Apart. I am going to do that.

Mikki: You should.

Rachael: Something to do today.

Zibby: I'm so excited. Kyle and I are going to do that. That's my plan. I'll just call him and let him know. [laughter] I should've done it before we talked.

Mikki: We weren’t talking about that one. This one was more important today.

Zibby: It was so good. I'm so excited for you guys, All This Time.

Mikki: Thank you. Thank you so much, Zibby.

Zibby: It was great to talk to you.

Rachael: Thank you so much for having us on.

Mikki: Nice to meet you. Thank you so much.

Zibby: Buh-bye.

Mikki: Bye.

Rachael: Bye.

Bill Clegg, THE END OF THE DAY

Zibby Owens: Welcome, Bill. Thanks so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Bill Clegg: Thanks for having me on.

Zibby: It's my pleasure. I was just telling you, but just to showcase my Bill Clegg fandom over the years, Portrait of an Addict as a Young Man, which was so amazing. Now I know everything about this period of your life, as we were discussing.

Bill: I'm so sorry. [laughs]

Zibby: Did You Ever Have a Family, everybody is like, "This is the best book ever. Oh, my gosh," everybody I talk to. Then The End of the Day which of course has just come out and which is absolutely beautiful and I was so privileged to have read. I'm so happy to be here talking to you.

Bill: I'm happy to be here too. Thank you.

Zibby: Let's just talk for sec first about The End of the Day even though it's not the end of this day. What inspired you to write this book? What's it about? Why this book? Why now in your life?

Bill: Oh, the easy questions.

Zibby: Just all that. Then we're good to go.

Bill: The End of the Day, when I'm writing, there's usually some other secondary writing that's going on to the main thing. It's usually when I hit wall. I'll just go to that other thing that doesn't have any booby traps or problems associated with it. I am of the "go where it's warm" philosophy in writing. If it gets too tortured or uncomfortable or just isn't coming, I'll move off and go write something that feels easy, and that will be fun. Then I'll hit a wall there and go back to the problem that I couldn't solve before and it will seem, usually, much less difficult to solve. With The End of the Day, one of the central characters is a woman named Jackie. She actually appears for a moment in Did You Ever Have a Family. She's the mother of the caterer who is a minor character at the beginning of that book who tells a story to lay the groundwork of the scenario of that novel. She appears in the driveway in a housecoat. Her porchlight is on in the middle of the day. Then she's gone and you never see her again. When I was writing that book, she interested me. I just kept on coming back to her. I didn't know it at the time, but I kept on writing her backstory of her childhood, this important friendship she had when she was a kid.

Then it became clear that she and her entourage were not going to be central to Did You Ever Have A Family, but I just kept on writing her because she was interesting to me. Then when I finished Did You Ever Have A Family, there were all these pages without really an organizing center to them. Then I overheard a story about somebody who was in [indiscernible], Connecticut, which is near where I grew up. This is many, many years ago. He was telling the story of how he was at a picnic. It was holiday picnic of some kind. I don't know if it was the Fourth of July. He had gotten up to run an errand and went to the store to get something. There was some group of New Yorkers who were hanging out. They invited him basically to come party with them. They went up this mountain, and he didn't come back for two months. He had left his family at this picnic and he just disappeared into this. I was interested in that for a lot of reasons. Namely, I identified with it because at a certain point in my life that might have been something I would've done. The fact that he had a family and that he had just left them and then he came back down the mountain and faced this family -- the marriage survived, apparently. That was a very captivating scenario. I was imagining into that quite a lot. Then it somehow merged with this whole story of this woman in this small town named Jackie who had been born of this other novel. Suddenly, the book became clear to me, what it was going to be. That's how it started.

Zibby: Wow. This is proof that if you don't use the pages in your novel, you can save them and maybe them another time.

Bill: Exactly. Nothing should be ever wasted.

Zibby: Don't waste it. Start a new Word document. Who knows? It could end up as this.

Bill: Maybe it's because I have so little free time that anything that would exist that could be used, I think of as potential. It was inert. It was this pile of -- it just didn't quite -- then this other random element came in and activated it and made it a story that I could lay my mind around.

Zibby: I'm glad you didn't toss it because it was beautiful. Your writing, first of all, is just, as you know, as you must know, it's just so beautiful, the way you write, the way you tell stories, the way you even paint a picture of the room. You can feel yourself in it. It's such a gift. It's really awesome. Obviously, it goes from such extremes. In your memoir, you're shaking and waiting for your crack dealer to call you and losing forty pounds. Your life is crazy. Then you go to this elderly woman and waking up in her bed with the light streaming in. It runs the gamut. It's amazing the way you can take the reader to all these places. I guess that's writing in and of itself.

Bill: It somehow makes sense to me, maybe not from a distance. Crack dens of New York, the country bedrooms and women waking up and pondering the morning, they don't obviously connect. Somehow to me, they seem like there's a direct link.

Zibby: How did this whole writing side of your life get started? When did you know you were a writer? Is this something you've always done? Was Portrait of an Addict as a Young Man your first book, or do you have novels stashed away somewhere?

Bill: No, that's the first thing I had written since college. I kept notebooks in college and then in my early years in New York. It was always like, I just wrote impressions of things. I've looked at some of that stuff. A lot of it is me coming home a little bit tipsy and wanting to record something that felt very urgent or important to transcribe. Usually, it was just the Brooklyn Bridge and the lights of the city. It's so cliché and so bad. I did write. I worked with writers. I came to New York. I started working at a literary agency. Honestly, me writing didn't even enter a real consciousness. Underneath everything, of course that's what I hoped would happen, but I'd never named it to myself. It seemed beyond me. Then after I got sober, in early, early recovery, I was writing stuff down because I thought that I would forget it. There was a lot that hovered in this gauzy space of, did it happen? Did I imagine it? I wrote it all down. Some of those details were incredibly vivid. I thought that if I just wrote it down then, that later I'd be able to make sense of it and it would all became clear. It didn't, not really.

Zibby: This is back to your saved pages writing theory again.

Bill: Exactly. Nothing is wasted.

Zibby: Or nothing is new. [laughs]

Bill: It just gets repurposed. Then I put those pages down. I went back to work after getting sober for a year. I had a lot of damage to clean up and a lot of relationships to mend. I had to learn how to live my life sober. That took me time. Then at one point I went back to those pages and just looked at them. It unlocked something. Now I look at that time period, I just started writing what had happened. It came somewhat easily at the time. It really came out like a gusher. I felt like I was catching up with it as I was typing. Then the book came into being. After I'd finished it, it was like, oh, I can write a book. I loved the experience of being alone with pages and the sentences and just the project of making a story that's here, putting it here. Now since then, it's just become a regular part of my life. My main job is as a literary agent. When I can, I write. There's always something. Even if it's several months between writing sessions, I'm still puzzling through stuff a little bit in the downtime.

Zibby: How does your experience as a writer then affect the books that you gravitate towards, or does it not at all? Do you pick books to publish similar to your style of writing? I saw your list. I've had some of your authors on my show and everything. How does it relate?

Bill: In the main, I'm more attracted to writing that I can't imagine myself doing. There's recovery. There's things that involved themes that I've explored. In the main, these are writers who I'm in awe of. I'm trying to, at first, figure out what it is they're trying to do and then ultimately when I get to the edge of that, trying to help them get that writing in the world. Usually, the things that don't occur to me are the things that excite me the most. There isn't that kind of overlap. It's changed over the years too. People will ask, what are you looking for? My answer, which sounds so trite in some ways, is it's sort of the thing that I didn't expect is the thing I'm looking for. If you've seen it or if you've read it a lot of times before, it's not necessarily the thing that you're going to be the most excited to engage in. When I come up to this house that we now live in all the time because of the coronavirus -- we used to only come up maybe two or three weekends out of the month. I would come up for a week and pull up the drawbridge and write. On the other end of that week, I'd be so desperate to get back to other people's writing and out of the head of my own. Setting up those kind of reunions with the job and the writing, it's just been a nice balance for me. I am always looking forward to the thing that I'm heading toward. Nothing ever feels too oppressive or too much. Even though the agenting takes primacy in the days and the weeks, I'm thinking about what I'm writing, usually. It's on the horizon somewhere even if it's months away.

Zibby: Then in addition to reading for your work as an agent, do you read for fun on top of that? You must not have time for that. Do you?

Bill: It's hard. You know what's really helped me with that? Audiobooks. I'm kind of late to the table, I think, but I've discovered them. When I work out, I listen to audiobooks. If I'm lifting weights or if I'm doing something, I listen to audiobooks. I have now become kind of an addict. I am addicted. Along with pizza and donuts, there's audiobooks. It's great. I love them. Some of them are so well-done. I just listened to The Dutch House, which Tom Hanks narrates. When I first approached it, I was kind of skeptical because that felt a little too Hollywood. He's amazing. He reads it and really delivers a major performance in the reading. It's great. If you haven't listened to that, I recommend it.

Zibby: That's a great suggestion because I've been meaning to read that book. I've had it right here for so long. That will be a great way. I also have recently gotten into audiobooks. Being out of the city, there felt like there were more opportunities like taking long walks and long drives. I wasn't going to listen to an audiobook in a taxi or something. Although, I guess I could now, not that I'm in a taxi that often.

Bill: I also recommend City of Girls, Elizabeth Gilbert's. That, it's Blair Brown. Do you know who she is? She was in a television show in the eighties called The Days and Nights of Molly Dodd.

Zibby: I remember that.

Bill: Then she's doing a lot of theater and stuff like that. Based on this performance alone, I think she's one of the best actresses on the planet. It's the story of this woman's life. It's really the whole sweep of a life from teenage years into her seventies, eighties maybe. It's epic and brilliant. It's one of the best novels ever. The performance that she gives in the reading is memorizing.

Zibby: I like also reading memoirs when the author narrates themselves because then I feel like you know them even more intimately. Jodie Patterson's The Bold World, she did such a good job reading that. I just read Jill Biden's. I just had her on. She read her memoir. I just felt like by the time I talk to them, I've already talked to them for eight hours or whatever it is.

Bill: I listened to Michelle Obama's. That was actually the first one that I listened to in March in quarantine. I thought it was great. I looked forward to it every morning when I would go down to the basement and work out in the cobwebs. Michelle Obama made it possible. It's such a good book.

Zibby: Who narrated your audiobooks? Do you have audiobooks?

Bill: I agree with you. I think having the authors read makes it better. In my case, I've read them, and I can't say that I've made them better. I'm not that good at it. In fact, on The End of the Day, I was supposed to read the audio of The End of the Day in New York at a studio. Then COVID happened. We were up here. Somehow, they figured out a -- it's like this converted barn that's a recording studio, but mainly for musicians. In fact -- oh, gosh, I'm going to forget his name. There's a popstar, Shawn something, who's dating Camilla Cabello.

Zibby: Now you're going to embarrass me, [indiscernible].

Bill: I should know this. Anyway, he had just left after recording his new album. Then I turned up. It was literally five minutes down the road. I would go for an hour and a half a day and just read a little bit. I did it over the course of two months. I shouldn't probably say this, but I don't think it's the best. I did my best.

Zibby: I'm sure it's fine. At least you knew what you meant. At least the intonations are what you had in mind when you wrote it versus somebody coming into it who might misinterpret or something.

Bill: Yeah, but then when you listen to somebody like Tom Hanks read The Dutch House, it's so shaming because there is a way to really embody the dialogue. I just don't have the skill set.

Zibby: That's his whole job. He's been doing that forever.

Bill: I know. I know.

Zibby: If he tried to be a literary agent for the day, he might not do a good job. That's his job. This is your job.

Bill: True.

Zibby: These glimmers of ideas that you still have, are you always writing a book? Are you in the middle of one now, or are you just going to look for more scraps? I feel like you should go through your junk mail and find whatever you can.

Bill: Oh, yeah, this loan offer is a novel. Possibly. I'm definitely working on something right now. It's going to be the third of what is unofficially a kind of trilogy of these books that take place in the fictional town of Wells, Connecticut, which is where Did You Ever Have A Family and The End of The Day take place. This is one that I've been sort of circling since the first one. There's a character that I've had in mind. I had the title a long time ago but didn't have the book. I had the character and the title, but I had no idea, really, what the story was going to be. Now I'm coming into it a little bit and just typing toward it.

Zibby: Do you discuss your work with some of the writers you represent or just friends? Do you keep it all under wraps?

Bill: In the beginning of this, I was like, church and state, oh, no. The thing about working in book publishing and working in literature and probably any creative field where the medium is something that matters to you a lot, I represent these writers who are also big readers. We talk about books. We talk about their books. There's an intimacy that develops, and especially with some of them, over time. With a few, my writing's come into it kind of against my urging and certainly better judgement. A couple of them have been really good, have read stuff, and even early. We talk about it. Some, but not that many.

Zibby: Can you give a little glimpse of more of what Portrait of an Addict as a Young Man was about? I know this is from a while back. It's about your life. I thought it was just so good. I've remembered it all this time, not that it was that long. Was it ten years ago or something? How long ago was it?

Bill: 2010, it got published.

Zibby: That was good. I didn't research that. [laughs] Anyway, share a little bit of your life story from that time and how you made it through. That's the most inspiring type of story there is, going through the worst and coming out better for it on the other side.

Bill: That memoir chronicles a period of time. The foreground is a couple of months that I spent really in a freefall of crack cocaine addiction. I had, for over ten years, had an active crack addiction that I had kept secret. I was a heavy drinker. I'm sure that there was some people in my life who thought that I was an alcoholic. Nobody had confronted me about it, but I'm sure I didn't give them a lot of room to. In terms of the crack cocaine addiction, my boyfriend at the time knew, who I lived with, but that was the only other person. If you know anything about addiction, particularly with crack cocaine, it becomes less and less manageable. At the point that it became completely unmanageable, I just walked out the door of my life on a bender that I had intended to end in death. On the other side of that, I ended up in treatment. Because so much of those two months were -- a lot happened in that time. When I was getting sober, I was trying to make sense of what had happened. It's a very close look at those last two months of my active addiction. Then it panels back to when I was a kid to lead up to the period of time that that two months commenced. It's sort of like, how did you get here? I think I'm still puzzling through that. I'm still engaged in that.

That book is a kind of representation of what my engagement with that puzzle looked like at the time in 2008, is when I finished writing it. I was lucky. I went to treatment. I found other alcoholics and addicts in recovery. I realized after relapsing a fair bit in my first year of sobriety that I couldn't stay sober without other alcoholics and addicts in recovery. I needed them very closely and actively in my life. Some of the people from that period of time in 2005 and '06 when I was first getting sober, those people are still active in my life. I let go of everything I thought I knew about how to live my life. I'm sober today. If there's a reason, it connects to that. I had a lot of ideas about how I should live my life and how I could navigate the problems in my life. I had to throw all that out to get sober. People in recovery taught me how to live, how to be honest, how to be accountable, how to be responsible, and how to be useful. Growing up before that, the North Star was, am I going to be happy? How can I be happy? I let go of that in recovery.

What became clear is that if happiness was ever going to come into it, it was because you were living a useful life where the focus of self isn't the primary objective of the day, but really focusing on others, which parenting is very helpful with. [laughs] The crisis of taking care of somebody immediately takes your mind off yourself. That's also been helpful. There's no finish line in recovery. It's been a lot of years since then, but I'm not standing on the other side of a finish line. It's something that I have to engage with, always. Happily for me, I love the rooms of recovery. I love the people in them. I love sober alcoholics and addicts, their stories, their sense of humor about the worst thing. I identify with them. That’s kind of it. There are people I know who have leaned into it and followed a very similar path to mine who haven't gotten sober. On some level, it's a mystery. It really gets a little woo-woo for me. When I look at the videotape, I'm kind of shocked that I am sober and that I was able to navigate that period of time, especially in early recovery. It's somewhat of a mystery still.

Zibby: Do you feel like part of the being useful was contributing your own story through your memoir and the novels that came after?

Bill: Writing the books kind of felt like not a choice. It really became this puzzle that I needed to see through. Having it be published was the choice. The only way in which it made sense was if it could be useful. You've talked to a lot of memoir writers, so you know this. You're bringing in other people's stories by telling your own, and so there's a cost. There's a complication. It really had to be something that -- there's a discomfort too of just taking those parts of your life that are, for a long time, the most shameful, the ones you would do a lot to keep hidden, and then you're actively putting them forward. The reason to do it was to have it be useful. Probably anybody who's written a memoir of their experience, even of experiences that aren't as dark as my own, when people identify with your story -- I still get emails and DMs and all sorts of communication about people reading those books who have identified, who say it's useful. That's been helpful to make peace with whatever the discomforts have been for me, and especially with the people in my life who those books have involved.

Zibby: I know we were joking before we started recording about how your neighbors, they find out about your book and maybe they don't want to send their kids for a playdate right away. [laughs] I'm kidding.

Bill: Bring the kids over. [laughs] To my face, I don't get much of it. I can't imagine the conversations. One of the things that I have found, which was not my experience when I was younger, is that stories like mine aren't that unique. It seems ultra-unique as you live it. It feels terribly singular and not knowable. Addiction and alcoholism seem to cut through even the most serene-looking lives. I find more that, as I navigate the world, people who I meet confess to me more easily about what's going on in their life. It's overwhelming how much it affects people.

Zibby: That just hits on the whole point of books, really. When you're going through life, these experiences all make you feel that way. Then as soon as you read someone else's or you put your own there, you realize that you're just one. This is just part of the collective experience. That's what's so great about it.

Bill: I think that's true. In the literature of recovery, there's one phrase that really caught my attention early on. There's a description of getting sober as an end of isolation. That was a hundred percent my experience, which is going from this secret, shameful, tortured existence into a community of people who had had very similar experiences. Many of the feelings they would even describe in the same language that I would use, which shocked me to my bones. Also with books, I remember reading books when I was young, identifying with experiences, and just connecting to the world. I grew up in a small town, at the end of a long driveway, before social media. Books were also just a way of seeing what was going on in the world, but also recognizing certain feelings and circumstances. It had this connecting effect. It ended isolation, or it tempered it in some ways, made it more bearable. Certainly, recovery was the extreme version of that for me.

Zibby: I feel like a lot of moms use Facebook groups as their recovery vehicle. I'm not even kidding. What you're talking about with community and all that, I've never been a big message group user type person, but so many people, that's what they need. That's what they're hooked on. It provides them some sort of solace for when they go back in the middle of the night and the kid won't sleep and blah, blah, blah. There's all these groups.

Bill: Life is hard. Anytime that you can connect in any way, even if it's not explicitly to connect about what's hard about life, just not to feel alone in it is buoying. It helps you survive it. It helps you navigate it.

Zibby: Very true. Do you have any advice to aspiring authors? as our last question. I've kept you for too long here.

Bill: Just write, and write more. Read a lot. Reading is one of the most important things that a writer can do. Do both. Write without an expectation. A lot of the time, some of the best work that I've read, when I find out later from the author how it came to be, a lot of it, it happens first without a shape in mind. It comes from this amorphous feeling. All the writers I work with know that I quote this line from the poet WS Merwin. He wrote a poem about writing a poem. He says, "Any day now, I'll make a knife out of this cloud." I think of that cloud as the idea or the inspiration, feeling like something should be written down. The writing is making that more specific, more purposeful, more deliberate. Sometimes it just needs to be a cloud for a while, and just to luxuriate in that and to explore that. Usually, along the way, a shape or a pattern or a purpose emerges. Then you write toward that. I think there's so much tension that arrives at the blank screen and thinking that you need to know what it is exactly before you begin. Just write. Just start. It's like analysis. I don't think people are in analysis anymore. Once upon a time, people would sit for hours just rattling off stuff. Little patterns would emerge from what they would say. Then meaning would be gleaned from that. Then a story gets shaped. Then something really meaningful happens and shapes, but over time. It takes a time.

Zibby: Sort of writer as sculptor whittling it down. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for chatting today and for coming on my show and sharing all your experiences and writing all your fantastic books that have really made a big difference. Thank you.

Bill: Thank you. I appreciate it. Take care.

Zibby: Bye-bye.

Arden Myrin, LITTLE MISS LITTLE COMPTON

Zibby Owens: Welcome to "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books," Arden. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Arden Myrin: Zibby, I was so excited to be asked. Thank you. I'm a fan.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. First of all, the care package you sent with this, it was months ago now, I was like, this is going to be so fun. [laughs] Anybody who's cool enough to put their worst middle school or lower school picture on a puzzle is my kind of -- that's really awesome. Little Miss Little Compton, really awesome.

Arden: Thank you so much. That was what I actually wanted for the cover. I did recreate my sixth-grade photo. I begged for them to put that on the cover, and they wouldn't. I actually love the cover. I think I got the right cover. I think they were right, but I was excited. I was like, I can't have recreated that and just have it go nowhere. I was like, I'm going to do a meet-the-author with me and my cat, Mittens.

Zibby: It's perfect. I love how you got it in there. It was perfect. Also, when I watched you jumping up and down on Instagram and you were like, "I wrote a book. I wrote a book. I wrote a book," literally, I wanted to applaud. That was so cute. You can just tell how proud you are. You should be that proud. It's an amazing accomplishment.

Arden: For anybody out there who is an author or a first-time, so somebody who's never written a book or is writing, I have to tell you, I am so short attention span theater, the sheer fact that -- I've always been, in life, I could make magic in a short period of time, but I've never been the long-distance race -- if I can't finish it in one sitting, I generally wouldn't do it. I will say for anybody out there that is an author, I had this fantasy that if you sold a book and you wrote a book, that an author gets up and they have their breakfast, and then they log in at ten and they're done at four. Then they go on a walk and then have a brandy and watch some classy thing on television. Particularly in the beginning, it was almost like, you stay in your corner, I'll stay in mine, page. The blank page, I was cautiously approaching it like a caged animal. I would, in the beginning, just do twenty-five minutes a day at first. I would time it. I wouldn't go online. I wouldn't check my texts. I wouldn't be calling anybody. It was just facing myself. Then eventually, I could go a little bit longer. Anybody who knows me, it is a huge accomplishment to actually just allow the process. I started with the word count. I had a pretty aggressively structured proposal which gave me the format. I was so overwhelmed. I started with the word count. I printed it all out. I organized everything. Then I just allowed for it to be a terrible first draft like I was going to Michael's crafts and I was getting glue and felt and yarn and sparkles and to trust that I had to just get the material. Then when I had all the words out, then I went through chapter by chapter and really made sure to tighten and shine each one up and then made sure the flow of the arch of the narrative made sense.

Zibby: Wow. It came off as one really cohesive story. The part that I found really interesting -- it was all awesome, your description of where you grew up and your dad, Willy. He was right off the page. I feel like I got to know him so well, his foibles and his strengths and weaknesses and all the rest. It's almost how the book developed unintentionally because you were talking about your life and then things happened through the writing so that you could even say, "While I wanted to make this like a beach read, now it's serious," but so poignant and moving. I don't want to give anything away that happens later even though it's your life. [laughs]

Arden: It's an interesting thing. This was a book that I'd been trying to sell for a while. I had this unusual upbringing. It's a small-town life. My parents married on a dare. I had this very salty dad. He's a great literary character, maybe not so great in person as a dad, but a great literary character. [laughs] I thought I could this tell this funny story. If you read it, there's a twist at the end that was not part of the original plan. I thought it would just be a fun, female comedian, here's all my most embarrassing stories. Here's my quirky upbringing. Here's my Dorothy going to Oz, how to go from a town with a general store and make it onto a sitcom. Here's all that fun. Then an event happens on the day that I find out that I've sold the book that alters the entire DNA of it and I actually think made it a better book. I mean, made life trickier.

Zibby: I agree, not that I would wish that to happen.

Arden: I know what's going on with you. I know you know what that's like. It's an interesting thing. We can talk. What do you think? Is it giving stuff away?

Zibby: I don't know. It's hard to say because it's your life. I guess anybody who knows you would know what happened.

Arden: It was sort of this fun beach read for a while. It's this funny story. In it, my dad had passed away. I was writing about that. It took me about a year, but I was feeling better. The proposal had been getting shopped around. I'm on this show, Insatiable on Netflix. We were back filming in Atlanta. This is eighteen months after my dad had died. Nobody could get in touch with my mom. She had just died making breakfast. She just died. I had to go home. On the way to the funeral in this tiny town, I got this email from a publisher that was like, "Hope you're having a great week. We're so excited to do this book with you." This has been something I've been trying to sell for a few years. Then it was so strange that of all the versions of what the book could be, she was barely in the proposal because she wasn't quite as noisy of a figure. I think it became her book. Then my friend who read it, she's like, "Arden, it's not your memoir. It's your mom-oir."

I'm sure you're going through something similar. The experience of when somebody dies, and when somebody dies who's fun and beloved, people tell you stories about them. All of these stories were told to me that I didn't know. I didn't know that she was the den mother of my brother's cub scout troop. I didn't know that she’d made a flipbook. I grew up in this town with fisherman and lobsterman. It's as small as you could possibly imagine. She was like, okay boys, today I'm going to teach you how to put on a Broadway musical. She made a flipbook. Just things like that that I would never have known. It really became a fun tribute to -- all it takes is one person rooting for you. My parents married on a dare in Manhattan. They never went on one date. They married on a dare for vacation time. It was this odd upbringing. It just takes one person who's like, protect your light, go for it, encouraging you.

Zibby: Your mom was, I want to say, such a hoot. Do you know what I mean?

Arden: She was a hoot.

Zibby: She was so funny, even the clips that you put on from when she would call in and you would talk about her as a real estate agent. She just seemed so funny. You clearly had such affection, not just affection like mother-daughter. I feel like it's such a general term, like, oh, my mother this, but it doesn't do justice to the crazy people these people are in the world. She was quirky and funny. Then you build her up so much in the writing that when you get to the part with the teacup on the counter, you want to just cry with you.

Arden: It's an interesting thing. You're one of the first people who've read it. I've had a few friends who are comedy friends. They’ll text. They're like, "Ha-ha, I'm reading. Your dad is eating his sheet cake diet." Then I'll get a text that's like, "Oh, my god, I'm in tears." I thought, you know what, for me personally, I'm proud of that. I'm not trying to make my friends cry. It's an interesting thing growing up in New England. You're sort of taught to, not keep secrets, but for me, I grew up keeping things funny. Then I actually will say it was my podcast -- even in my comedy, I was never super personal in my standup. I host this very silly Bachelor podcast. I don't know if you're having this experience now. Both of my parents died in season. Both of them died on Saturdays. The Bachelor airs on Mondays. Then I record on Tuesday. I've always been fairly private about my personal life, but there was no way to hide that I wasn't in the studio and that I was in my family den. I'm with my brother.

I allowed myself to cancel anything I wanted to cancel. I wanted to do that. I felt a real kinship with my listeners. We chose to do the podcasts. It was interesting. I was worried I was going to freak people out, that it was going to be too much, that people were going to be frightened by that information, that they're like, lady, we just want our Bachelor news. We don't want to hear that your dad died. Are you a psychopath? People were like, thank you so much for talking about what's going on. It helps me. I have stuff going on. It helps me to see that you're still moving forward. I was pretty honest about my path there. On the page, I feel like each time, the universe or the creative spirits or whatever I think are encouraging me to feel safer and safer exposing more just of my heart or the truth. It doesn't have to be malicious, but that by telling your story it doesn't have to just be the funny parts. That makes it a better story.

Zibby: I agree. You can still appreciate the funny parts. It's like looking at a very pretty tree but you don't see the roots or something. Once you can see the whole thing, then it's even more majestic that it can rise. That sounds ridiculous. There's something about seeing the whole thing, seeing what maybe other people can't really see all the time. Then it makes it deeper. Then you enjoy the comedy more or something.

Arden: The people I appreciate sort of lay themselves out. The world is so bonkers, and even before 2020. Life is a journey. Just to know that everybody grew up with some stuff, everybody has stuff, even if it looks the best, everybody has a few cards in their hand that are complicated that was dealt to them. I feel like just the humanity and the connection -- I have a very close friend who's this wonderful playwright, Tom Diggs. He's my classy friend. He was nominated for a Pulitzer. I kept calling him as I was writing this. He has two things he kept saying to me. I have written scripts and things. He kept saying to me, "Arden, each piece reveals to you how it wants to be written. It's not the same strategy for each piece." Then when I was debating -- my dad was tough. He was entertaining if he wasn't your dad. He was funny. He was beloved by friends and neighbors, but he was a tough dad. I was asking him, "I don't want to throw somebody under the bus. I don't want to throw somebody under the bus that's not here." He just kept encouraging me to be like, is it necessary? Check your motives. Why are you telling it? Is it your story? How much can you reveal, not to be Pollyanna, but like a lady? You're letting people know sort of what's going on without having to throw somebody under the bus. That was one of the things I'm proud of. My brother hasn’t read it yet, so we'll see what he thinks.

Zibby: Oh, no.

Arden: I kept asking him if he wanted to read it. I said, "The part that might be hard --" He was tricky. My brother, he's so sweet. He's like, "Look, I know he was a tough dad." It's that balancing act of, here's the real story. Here's the story.

Zibby: You did include a nice, my brother's a great guy and he turned out great. [laughs] I feel like you said something like that towards the end.

Arden: It's so funny about my brother too because I just love my brother. Did you grow up with boys?

Zibby: I have a brother, yeah.

Arden: To me, if you grow up with boys -- we wrestled. We were both equally horrible to one another. We were both tiny. No one was in danger. We were both the runts of the liter. That's sort of the fun of having a brother. Some of the people, I think, did not grow up with boys. I think they thought that I had this tough brother. I'm thinking, no, that's just a brother. I have to say for any women out there who didn't grow up with a brother, this is a very nice person. This is the eighties. In the eighties, you're like little Peanuts characters just rolling around. That's the deal.

Zibby: Totally. My brother used to hit me all the time. I remember telling this to my husband. My husband's like, "He was three years younger than you. What are you talking about?" [laughs] I'm like, "I don't know. That's just what happened all the time. We just fought."

Arden: It's kind of fun. Who else on earth can you fight with?

Zibby: Of course, now when my kids fight, I'm like, stop! What I was going to say about your dad is when you talked about how your mom wanted four kids and he didn't want any kids and they compromised at two, but your dad was like, if you want to have kids, that's your thing. Then you said, my mom, my brother, and I were like a threesome, and my dad was just there, which paints the whole picture. He just didn't deal. It wasn't even personal. Yet he was aware, and this is what happened, almost.

Arden: He would just be like, "I told your mother if she wanted to have kids, she had to deal with you." You're like, okay. When you're little and that's the house that you're in -- I don't know if it's also dads of that era. I didn't really know a lot of my friends' dads. I think mine was harsher about it. If you don't grow up in a different house, you're like, okay, that's a dad. Thankfully, my mom, my brother, and I were such a team. We had so much fun. It literally felt like the three musketeers, and then there was a dude that lived in the den, which was fine. You just didn't go into the den. I just hang out with my buddies. That was very openly the deal.

Zibby: Then you even say everybody gets dealt a different hand in life. Some people just aren't meant to love or they just don't know how to love that well. That part made me so sad. That just made me sad. That hurts.

Arden: That was what was interesting when my dad died. It's an interesting thing. Look, I certainly didn't think my book would be coming out in a global pandemic, but I actually feel like it is a good book for this time in that I do think it's a fun, funny, lighthearted read. I do think there's an honest -- I feel like the world is collectively grieving, and it's different. Everybody has different experiences. With him, I thought it would just be a relief because he'd been sick for so long. It was the grief of failure to launch. There was never that come to Jesus at the end where, I'm so sorry. It just didn't happen. Just wanting to tell anybody out there, I just speak for myself, I am okay. It doesn't mean that there's not hurt in the heart for that. There's other people in my life that love me. He just couldn't do it. Even with what happened with my mom this year, I know a lot of people are walking through all sorts of things right now that no one could've imagined. The way it went with my mom, it was literally my worst nightmare and what I pictured. I got to tell you, there was a weird grace to last year even though my world was on fire. I would say there was certain gifts to it which I write about in the book too. I'm such a people-pleaser. I found that with both parents, one of the gifts of grief was I literally felt like I had no skin. The upshot of that was it was very clear to me who I wanted to be with, who I didn't want to be with -- I still knew I needed to have a little fun -- what felt safe and fun and what was like, no freaking way. I couldn't force myself to say yes when in the past, as such a people-pleaser, I would've made myself or gone, I should do this. I don't want to hurt their feelings. It wasn't that I was rude about it, but that one of the gifts of it is that I felt like it really separated the, what is it, the chaff from -- I don't know.

Zibby: The wheat from the chaff?

Arden: Yes. It just became clear. What can I eliminate? What makes my tail wag? What is joyful? What feels good? I really loved the grace of that. You're very present. Time takes on a different quality, which I think is happening globally right now anyway. I just have to really slow down and listen to next indicated action. What do I need? I'm such a doer. I get things done. How about half speed? How about just lowering the bar? How about your best is good enough? It may not be perfect. Done is better than great. Maybe you're going to be late to your little gym class. Maybe you didn't send that email, but okay. You're doing the best that you can. There was some magic to that that I wouldn't wish on somebody, but that if god forbid your world gets set on fire, you'll be okay one day. This too shall pass. It won't always feel like this.

Zibby: I feel like you've just been dropped down to talk to me directly. I'm pretending like nobody else is even listening to this conversation, so thank you. Your book and grief island and all the stuff you went through, it helps to hear someone else's story. I'm sorry you had to go through it all. I'm really truly a hundred percent from the bottom of my heart sorry. Being able to share it and tell it and experience your own version of something you couldn't have imagined, it just somehow helps everyone else.

Arden: It's so strange. Again, this book was supposed to be a fun --

Zibby: -- Not to say it's not funny.

Arden: It is very funny.

Zibby: It's super funny. I'm sorry.

Arden: If you don't want to get to the sad part, stop after I go to England.

Zibby: Literally, most of it is hilarious and funny and whatever.

Arden: Eighty-five percent. Most of it, it is the fun beach read. Just stop after chapter eighteen. Just skip the last two chapters. There's even hope in that. I will say, growing up in this very WASP-y New England family that doesn't talk about emotions and doesn't talk about feelings, I really felt for whatever reason, the timing of the sale of this book, that this would've never been my path in life, but somehow normalizing grief. Nobody talks about it. It's okay to feel sad. You don't have to feel not sad right away. I can't handle the, "She's in a better place." That one was the one, I was like, I can't do that. I can't do the better place one right now. For me, each one took about a year. It was like, oh, boy, here we go. My friend likened it to getting strapped -- you go to Six Flags and when you go on one of those rollercoasters that the things come down and lock you in, it's like, I didn't sign up for this ride, but it's taking me. I have some tips in the book of how to survive your own grief island and maybe even have some joy in it because there was some grace.

For me, the key was being around people where I could be not okay. That actually made me feel more okay. Debbie Ryan, who wrote my forward, the delightful star of Insatiable with me and the star of Jessie, who would've ever thought that this wonderful twenty-five-year-old Disney star would be the person that -- [laughs]. She just showed up. We were in Atlanta filming. She wasn't afraid of it. We would go roller-skating. We'd go out for tacos. We'd go to the roller derby. We'd go do karaoke. It was okay if I was a little bit out of it. I didn't have to be on point. For so much of my life, I think particularly growing up in kind of a quirky household, trying to look normal or trying to fit in like everybody else, there's such a grace of just being with people who are like, come as you are, girl. Put on your sweatpants, but here's some glitter roller-skates. We know you're not great, but come on. We're not scared of you in sweatpants. Come on. We love you anyway. Come on, honey.

Zibby: It's so true. The people who end up coming through in times of loss, not coming through, but the people that you feel the most connected to are never, not never, but are rarely the ones you expect. It could be total strangers.

Arden: Sometimes the ones you expect can't handle it. You don't know. Honestly, it was all of the kids on Insatiable. It was the entire teen cast. There was a boy on the show that was this teen heartthrob who is absolutely adorable, Michael Provost. By the way, ninety percent of this book is not this. Don't be afraid. This boy, Michael Provost, one day he showed up at my Airbnb. He texted me. He was like, "What are you doing today?" I was like, "I'm supposed to be writing my book." I'd say no to all these fun things. He showed up at my doorstep. This sweet teen dream had made me a lasagna. He goes, "Look, I didn't know what to say to you. I thought about it. I remember when somebody in my town would pass, my mom would make them a lasagna, so I went on YouTube last night and I learned how. I baked you a lasagna." He borrowed his mother's baking pan, and he made me a lasagna. He showed up. He was twenty-one years old, eight million Instagram followers. He could've gone to a bar legally. He's super popular. This young man went inside and baked his grieving adult lady costar a lasagna and brought it over. People can be -- there's so much goodness. You don't know who.

Zibby: Yes, that's the best part of the whole thing, is seeing all the good and all the connection and all that behind the scenes, so to speak. It could be Behind the Music of -- [laughs].

Arden: The Behind the Music of teen dramas on Netflix. True story.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, Arden, I feel like I could talk to you all day. I feel like we're just scraping the surface. I had so many quotes and all the rest from your book. Anyway, I loved talking to you. I love that you gave so much advice along the way of people, what they should do when they're writing a book and all of the rest and your journey and loss and humor and how it all combines. It was just a true pleasure to chat with you.

Arden: Thank you so much. Can I have a little giveaway for your listeners?

Zibby: Yes, oh, my gosh!

Arden: Premiere Collectibles does a thing with authors. For the first 250 people, you can get a signed book and a little Little Miss Little Compton tote bag for the cost of the book if you go to ardenmyrinbook.com, A-R-D-E-N-M-Y-R-I-N,book.com. For the first 250, you get the tote and the signed book. Then the second 250, it's just the signed book. Get them while they last.

Zibby: I'm releasing this when your book comes out, so I'm worried that maybe they’ll be gone by then.

Arden: Then go to your local bookstore and support an independent bookstore.

Zibby: Or maybe they’ll still get it. We'll try.

Arden: We'll try.

Zibby: Thank you so much.

Arden: Zibby, you are a delight. You're so much service to so many authors and so many people. I was so excited to come on your podcast. I hope to meet you in person one day.

Zibby: I hope to meet you in person one day soon.

Arden: Hang in there.

Zibby: You too. Buh-bye.

Arden: Bye.

Jeff Hobbs, SHOW THEM YOU'RE GOOD

Zibby Owens: Thank you so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books" and talking about your latest book, Show Them You're Good. As I mentioned to you over email, I also loved your first book. Welcome.

Jeff Hobbs: Thank you. That means a lot.

Zibby: Show Them You're Good, can you tell listeners, please, what it's about?

Jeff: Show Them You're Good, it's about a group of senior boys at two different high schools in very different neighborhoods in Los Angeles applying to college and going through their last year of high school.

Zibby: What inspired you to tackle this topic? It seems like you're very interested in how different lives along the same timelines can veer off in different ways, from this book, from Robert Peace book. What's that about? Where's that coming from?

Jeff: I wrote The Short and Tragic Life of Robert Peace about a really good friend of mine from college who passed away. That book was very hard and personal. I didn't really think anybody would read it because it is hard. When it came out, something sort of terrifying happened, which is that a lot of schools started asking me to come visit and talk. You can already tell after two minutes that I was never meant to speak in public or really speak in general.

Zibby: Oh, please. [laughs]

Jeff: I went to schools from Ivy League schools to juvenile halls and a lot of spaces in between, I would say mostly city public high schools, and had these conversations with young people. We were talking about race and education and access and entitlement. There was something about Rob Peace and his story that brought young people, particularly young men, to share their own stories or even just fragments of their families and their aspirations. I carried those home from these different places. It was meaningful. I just started thinking that maybe there's a way to tell some stories about what it looks like and feels like to be eighteen years old in America right now.

Zibby: What was your experience at eighteen like?

Jeff: It was unremarkable. I played some sports.

Zibby: What part of the world did you grow up in?

Jeff: I grew up in the country in Pennsylvania, so a small school where you go to school with the same fifty people for fourteen years, very different from going to high school in Los Angeles. This project in no way was me trying to relive the glory days, sort of the opposite.

Zibby: How did you find the guys in your book like the character, not the character, the actual person Owen whose parents were in the film industry, and so had such reputable careers themselves. Then you have the boy whose parents are Chinese immigrants. You have all different kinds of boys, let me just say that, for all different backgrounds. How did you find them? Why did you pick them?

Jeff: I didn't really pick them, so to speak. I undertook this project and started reaching out to schools. My wife thought I'd lost my gourd. Maybe I had. Very few schools want some awkward journalist roaming around their hallways, if you know what I mean, mainly because schools get dinged a lot by journalists. These two schools, I'd visited both of them before to, again, speak at assemblies and do book groups. I knew some teachers. The principals took a chance and opened their doors. They just sent an email out to seniors and said, "There's going to be this guy hanging around. If you would like to meet him, come to such-and-such classroom at such-and-such time." These guys came. One of these schools is in South LA right outside of Compton, which is a neighborhood a lot of people have heard of and even think they know what it's like. The other school is Beverly Hills High School. If you watched TV in the nineties, you might think you know what's going on there. These four or five guys in each school came. Then they kept coming every week. The center of the research was just these roundtable conversations I would have with these groups once a week for two or three hours at a time about what was going on with their lives. I think they came because I brought food.

Zibby: That will bring most young men anywhere. [laughs] After spending all this time with all these guys and analyzing all their interactions with their family and their grades and everything, you went into so much depth, what was the main takeaway? I feel like people are very down on the youth in the US today, and what kind of life are we giving them? and all this. Do you feel that sense of pessimism? Do you feel more optimism? What's your outlook on the next generation, if you will?

Jeff: I'm optimistic. I always risk sounding a little bit kumbaya, maybe. I got to know these guys really well over the course of a year. What I found is it's an exceptionally interesting generation because these guys know that they're the ones who are going to be dealing with a lot of issues that for older people, we talk about them and get outraged about them, but they're still kind of abstract, whether you're talking about climate or politics, race, all those things. I think these guys know that it's on their shoulders, and not abstractly. What ended up coming out of these conversations is the idea of self-determination. It's our national ethos that if you want something and dream big and work hard, you can get that thing. Particularly in schools, that is something that’s a notion that's drilled in pretty hard. It's in every graduation speech I've ever heard. I've heard a lot at this point. A lot of that year as they applied to college, again, from very different backgrounds, very different levels of privilege and family circumstances and levels of help, it was them learning that those lines are not straight. Life is messy. Things go wrong. The way they adapted to that messiness of being a human being is what makes me optimistic because that is resilience. Resilience is the other thing that's drilled in high school.

Zibby: When you were writing this book and doing all the research, what was your process like? How long did you take to do the research versus the writing? How did you sort through the piles of transcripts? How did you actually do it?

Jeff: That's just a lot of work. For the year, this was the 2016/'17 school year where these guys gave me a lot of time when they didn't really have much time. I probably spent a hundred hours or so with each group. I went to classes and dances and sports games and plays and proms. That's a tall stack of transcripts. I recorded most of it. You take that home and type it out and start rooting through it. Really, the hard thing was editing what was probably two thousand pages of single-spaced transcripts down to a book. You get very attached to people. You get very attached to their stories. You have to leave things out. That's hard sometimes.

Zibby: It's true. Did you always know you wanted to investigate and be a journalist and a writer and all of that? Was that something that you always had in your mind?

Jeff: Writer, yes, to the point where my older brother was playing baseball games and my dad would be yelling at me to get out of a tree and stop reading. But journalism, no. That was something that happened when my friend died, Rob Peace. It's not as if I went to his funeral thinking I was going to write a book. I went to his funeral, and people did the things they do at funerals to celebrate a person. Mainly, that is to tell stories. At the time, I thought I'd just write down some stories maybe for his high school newsletter or the Yale magazine or something that nobody would read but might speak to his life more than his death. That undertaking, I call it a eulogy that got out of hand. Through that process, I just learned I was a good listener in that I like listening.

Zibby: I like listening too. Maybe we should have a podcast where we both sit here silent and just hear the background noise and see how that goes.

Jeff: Listen to the kids banging around.

Zibby: Yeah, you could drag in a dog if you wanted. [laughs] So what project are you working on now?

Jeff: I spent the last year on a project about juvenile halls, sort of similar, some different schools. They are schools, jails/schools. I've just been spending time with young people going through those systems.

Zibby: Exciting. Why does your wife think you're out of your gourd for focusing so much on this age group and basically reliving your youth that you didn't really have in this way? What's that about?

Jeff: I think you just said it. It's odd to tell your family that you're not going to be cooking dinner on Friday night because you're going to a Halloween dance in South LA. I thought the stories were just really powerful. They're kids, but they're making these adult decisions. You mentioned Owen whose parents are very successful in Hollywood. He's kind of the perfect picture of this privileged Beverly Hills kid, but his mother's bedridden with an illness. He knows how little the world really cares about privilege. He knows randomness. He's trying to figure out how to be a good person knowing nobody really cares if he's a good person because he's a rich kid from Beverly Hills. A kid named Carlos who was applying to Ivy League schools and DACA at the same time and carrying that social narrative of upward mobility, all these kind of tropes we have in our world that when you get underneath them a little bit and look at the humans, they're pretty complicated. They're hard narratives for these people to carry.

Zibby: It's true. I felt so terrible for Owen's mom with not being able to find a diagnosis for so long and ending up in a wheelchair and all of that without knowing even really what was going on with her.

Jeff: There's a really touching scene, to me, when he's in all the school plays and he was practicing a song and dance number for Putnam County Spelling Bee, was the play's title. At night, he would sing and dance at the foot of his mother's bed while she harshly critiqued him.

Zibby: Wow. None of my kids are running around doing full-on dance recitals for me like that. Maybe I have to figure out a way to get better acting output. [laughs] Anyway, do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

Jeff: No, it's usually just kind of a clumsy process of stumbling around, I find, my particular work which I guess is called immersion journalism. I don't know if it exactly fits. Like we said, it's just kind of sitting and listening. Different issue, but I'm a white guy who grew up pretty easy. My work brings me around people who don't look like me and didn't grow up easy. That's a complicated thing. A lot of them trust me to tell their stories. I take that seriously. A lot of them don't trust me to tell their stories. I take that seriously too.

Zibby: That's great. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for talking about your new book. I'm sorry, I read your last book a while ago. I should've reread it before we talked. All I remember is how much I loved it. I'm sorry if I messed up any details. It was a while back.

Jeff: You didn't mess anything up.

Zibby: Sometimes I just have a feeling. I see book covers, every cover, I feel a feeling. I remember loving it or not really liking it or not even finishing. Some books really stand out on the shelf, but I can't always say exactly what about it was what -- anyway, sorry for not bringing up any details, but I know it was amazing. This was a really interesting portrayal of a whole group of people.

Jeff: It means a lot that you would remember it and that you would have me.

Zibby: No problem. Good luck on the juvenile hall thing. If you get all the way back down to kindergarten, I have one of those lurking about. If you get there, you might need a therapist alongside. I don't know. We'll see what happens.

Jeff: That sounds treacherous. I have a first-grader, so I'm sort of in that all day anyway.

Zibby: Got it. Thank you so much. It was nice to chat with you today.

Jeff: You as well. Thank you.

Zibby: Thanks. Buh-bye.

Meredith Masony, ASK ME WHAT'S FOR DINNER ONE MORE TIME

Zibby Owens: Thank you, Meredith, for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." I'm sorry for having to reschedule from [indiscernible/crosstalk]. I'm really sorry. I'm delighted to be talking to you today about Ask Me What's for Dinner One More Time: Inappropriate Thoughts on Motherhood, which was basically the bible of my life here, so thank you.

Meredith Masonry: I'm glad you enjoyed it. I love your shelves and how your books are color coded, sort of. I was like, am I seeing something? Then I was like, no, there are definitely colors.

Zibby: They are, yes. I've had it like this for a couple years.

Meredith: It looks great. It makes an extremely pleasant viewing experience.

Zibby: I'm so glad. I'm glad I could brighten the day a little bit with that.

Meredith: You did.

Zibby: There's so much to talk about in your book and your whole journey to becoming a YouTube sensation and all of your success in general. I wanted to start, if you don't mind, with the worst part, I'm guessing, of your life when you were dealing with your esophageal cancer, it wasn't cancer, your tumor, and what happened then and how it made you basically have a whole new approach to life.

Meredith: Everybody has an origin story. That would technically be mine because it did, at the time, feel like I was being punished, but it ended up being this gift. I had been sick for a while, and I just ignored it. I think as moms, we have a tendency to do that. We ignore. We say, I'll get to it later. You end up coming last because you have to take care of everybody else's needs. Finally after several trips to the doctor and them just upping my heartburn medication, I finally demanded a scope. I said, "I need you to look inside." I was starting to have a problem where I wasn't even able to swallow my food. My food was coming up. My pills were coming up. I got him to do the scope. "We noticed something. There's a lump." What does that mean? What's a lump? Why is there a lump there? What do you mean? Next scope, he just handed me off and said, "I can't even be your doctor. You have an esophageal tumor that has broken through your esophagus which is why you aren't able to swallow food right now. You have to see an oncologist."

It went very quickly from there. I was thirty-four, three small children, and basically handed off by a doctor who had ignored me for over a year. I panicked. I started to panic. You start to have all of these thoughts. You're like, if I die, who's going to do the laundry? Who's going to cook for these kids? Who's going to do all the drop-offs and the pickups? Who's going to do all the jobs that I do? On top of the relationship that is with your spouse. You panic. I did a lot of closet drinking and crying, if we're being honest. Then I also realized after I panicked and cried about all of those things, I grieved about a life that I hadn’t lived, which sounds so selfish. Part of it is selfish because you didn't get to do the things that you wanted to do. Then people will scold you and say, you got to be a wife and a mother. It's like, yes, but that's part of what I wanted to do.

There were lots of other things that I wanted to do that I put on the backburner because I assumed I'd have time. Now you're telling me after I did that part that there's no time? That became this quiet shame I held because I was mourning a life that I was possibly not going to be able to live and then felt guilt about that because I think as women and wives, we feel guilty about everything. Luckily, the tumor ended up being benign. They were able to remove it. I had to have three reconstructive surgeries. It was this blessing because it opened up my eyes. It made me realize that if you want to do something, do it today. Do not wait for tomorrow because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. Not to sound too dramatic, but you could step off the curb and get hit by a car. There are so many things that could happen that nobody thinks about. It could be it. That could be it. I was given a gift. It completely changed my perspective on being a mom, being a wife, being a woman, eventually becoming an entrepreneur. It changed everything in my world.

Zibby: Wow. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm happy for all the benefits that it yielded and the way that you're able to reframe what could be a negative experience and turn it into such a positive. That's the essential A+ therapy move. [laughs]

Meredith: The thing is, it's not like it was positive while I was going through it. I'm not going to lie and tell you that I was like, oh, a tumor, we'll get through this. No, I cried. I screamed at God. I said, why are you doing this to me? What did I do? What mistakes did I make? I know I was probably awful to my parents. Is this punishment for that? Is this punishment for acting out as a teen? What is this punishment for? You assume, when this happens, I'm being punished for something, as an ex-Catholic. I'm a Catholic light, so to speak. As an ex-Catholic, I assumed this was punishment. God was rendering some justice on my life. It was difficult to wrangle with that and look at these kids and think -- when the doctor looked at me and he said, "I have to operate now because if this is cancerous and I go in and I go to remove it and it has spread, you're not going to be here for Thanksgiving. You don't have that time to wait," that was just like, holy crap. What do you mean I don't have the time? Of course, I'll be here at Thanksgiving. Why would I not be here at Thanksgiving? It's August. You don't know that. It was very trying during the time. From the moment I opened my eyes and my husband looked at me and said, "It wasn't cancer. You're going to be okay," I had just this relief and this feeling of a million pounds being lifted off of my chest. I said, I've got to do something. I have so many things I need to do. I want to do everything that I said I was going to do from when I was five years old until now. I'm going to do all of it. I've taken lots of risks. I've been told no a million times. I have failed. I have also been so blessed to get to do so many of those things that I wanted to do from when I was a little kid. I'll take it.

Zibby: What are some examples of those things? What's something you always wanted to do?

Meredith: I always wanted to be a comedian in some way, shape, or form. I loved Saturday Night Live. I feel like we, people our -- I'm not going to speculate on your age. I'm going to say people my age, because I just turned forty, we got a really great crop of SNL actors that ended up going and doing so many things in their careers that are noteworthy and spectacular. I got to watch that growing up. I always said, I want to make people laugh like that. I want to do something that makes people laugh. I also loved writing. I am shameless and I will tell you that I got a five on my state writing assessment when I was in high school. I was like, I'm going to be published someday. I used to write for the local newspaper. I always said, I'm going to write a book. I didn't know what the hell I was going to write about, but I was going to write a book. I've been able to check some of these things off my list. No, I've not been on SNL, but I'd like to think that the videos I make and the content that I create is seen -- I have videos that have been viewed hundreds of millions of times. I can say, yeah, I didn't make it to SNL, but I don't care. I've been able to make videos that make people laugh. That makes me happy.

Zibby: It's amazing. That's the comedian. I want a few more examples. Anything else? I'm trying to think now that you're saying this, what would I put on my list if I had two months, for instance? That's a tough question. Are there things now that you still haven't done or that maybe have come up since that you're like, now these are next on my bucket list?

Meredith: What is shameful is my workspace. I can tell you that I'm looking down at my desk right now and I have eight notepads with eight different lists. Every day I decide I'm going to do something else and there's going to be another project. I already have the idea for book three. Whether or not somebody is going to buy that, I don't know, but I already have it. It's ready to go. I'm itching to write it. I also love to make T-shirts. I'm a T-shirt designer. I love to put my sayings and do all of that. I want my T-shirts sold in major retailers. I am pushing and working hard to do that. We also have a podcast, my cohost and I. We'd love to get this podcast out to as many people as we possibly can. It's called "Take it or Leave it: An Advice-ish Podcast for Parents." I have all of these things that we're doing. It's my goal to -- always at the center of every one of my "businesses" is to make sure moms are being heard and seen and feeling less alone because the struggle is real. We do face it each and every day. I think the pandemic magnified that. In no time in history that I can think of have parents and children been locked together for such an extended period of time where they weren’t either going and being social with other kids or going to school or the parents leaving the kids with a sitter or at a daycare or whatever. I don't think that's ever happened. Being able to be a voice to say to women out there, hey, totally cool that you lost it today and you're probably going to lost it tomorrow and you lost it eight times last week, none of this normal, but we're here together. Let's talk about it, the disaster that is virtual learning, the disaster that is keeping our kids separated from their friends, celebrating COVID birthdays, which suck, all of those things. I think it's great that I get to fill a role in helping people feel better through this process.

Zibby: I was trying to think of other times in history. The only time I can think, and this is not to make this time -- I feel like this will strike the wrong tone. I feel like in the Holocaust, parents and children were stuck. I actually, during the pandemic, thought about that a lot when I was having the feel-sorry-for-myself days at the beginning. How did people do that with the fear of death if their kids even spoke? It's not like people were so different. They were just like us, just maybe far less electronics. It's not like people were built differently or had more patience. They were just moms like us but trapped and hiding. How on earth did people get through that? Then it made this pandemic like, oh, for god's sakes, so I have to mop my nice house. It's okay.

Meredith: That's the thing. We were given a pandemic in a time where we had Netflix and grocery delivery. I did talk about that a ton. Yes, we're pushed together, but there is an upside to this. We're being told to sit on our couches and watch TV. Yeah, our kids are driving us nuts, but by gosh, would I take this over other things that happened in history? Of course, every single time. Then it became so political. It became so much about everything other than what it simply was, which is we have to try and contain a virus that is spreading like wildfire across the globe. Even places like social media where we could go to escape, it became a spot where you couldn't even go to do that because everybody was talking about those things. I don't talk politics at all, zero. What I can tell you as a person who believes in wearing a mask when they go out in public in order to keep somebody else safe and keep myself safe and paying attention to logically what we're doing to minimize risk, these things are important. You can't even talk about it without igniting a massive fire on social media. To me, that's crazy.

Zibby: I could not agree with you more. I posted about masks and everything myself a couple days ago because I had been sort of hiding out on Long Island this entire time and recently came back to New York City to put my kids back in school. This is where we live. I came back. I was afraid to come back. People were wearing masks, but not all people. I'd say maybe three quarters. It depends on the day, the time of day, where you are.

Meredith: Wow. That's great, though.

Zibby: I was horrified. I came back. I posted it on Instagram and Facebook expecting everybody to be like, no way, that's awful. That's what a lot of people who didn't live in New York said. A lot of people who did live in New York were like, we've been here the whole time and I don't think you saw that right. That's not what it's like in my neighborhood. What are you talking about? I got such pushback. It's not like I was alone. I was with my husband or I was with my daughter. I was like, am I losing my mind? Then the next time I got in the car, I was like, I just counted twelve people in two blocks who weren’t wearing masks. Did everybody see that? [laughs] Come on. I am seeing this. Why is this political at all? If somebody were walking off a street corner, I would say, watch out, if a car was coming fast. That's exactly what I feel like I'm trying to do now. I'm trying to scream it from the rooftops. Yet people are like, no, no, no, it's all good.

Meredith: It's been very weird to watch that as a mother too because we want to be like, this is going to help you. This is going to protect you. I need you to do this. I need you to listen. This is what we're doing. Believe me, I posted one thing once, and it was such a fifty-fifty divide. I was like, whoa, okay. This is political, apparently. I don't believe it to be political, but we're not going to fish in those waters because I do believe that I fall underneath the entertainment umbrella. When people come to our page, they want to be entertained. That's what it is. That's part of my purpose. I say, okay, not a problem. We can do that. I can do my best to entertain you. It was also hard to be in that headspace when you were freaked out about every decision that you were making as a parent and a human being. We all had decision fatigue about everything. Can we go to the grocery store today? Should we not? I don't know. I heard on Facebook that three people at the Publix had COVID. Should we even go out? I don't have any Lysol wipes left. I don't have spray bleach. What should we do? What should we do? Then other people who were just like, it's not real. That's not what's happening. You just would shake from the panic, the questions.

Zibby: I feel like it hasn’t totally ended. I was outside today and there were kids playing on the playground. I just don't feel comfortable with that. It's one of those times where, back to your whole point about parenting and how we each learn how to do it, I feel like this is also magnified, the fact that you just have to go by your own compass. Everyone's going to have different ways they raise their kids. Everyone's going to have different ways they approach the pandemic. There's no right or wrong. If you feel deep in your gut that if I really don't feel comfortable sending my kids to the playground, I just have to listen to that even if my friends say don't be silly.

Meredith: That's the thing. I don't think there are a lot of situations right now where you can be silly. To you, these decisions, and to 99.9 percent of the people, it matters. I got scolded. We walked past a playground. I didn't even let my kids on it. I was doing an Instagram story because I took them to the tennis court so they could just hit the ball back and forth. Nobody was there. It was a court with a net. I walk past a playground. "How dare you take those children." I was like, I didn't even take them to a playground. It's just the way people feel. Because they're feeling this way, they want to then tell you how they feel. Then it just snowballs. We've been doing distance learning for several weeks. We're in Florida which has been a hotbed for this after New York. You guys had it first. Then we had this massive spike. Our schools didn't shut down. My kids have been begging me from before school started, "Let us go back to school. Let us to go back to school." We are in a very small county in Florida that isn't, knock on wood, having a spike. I started to get really torn. I was like, should I just send them back? Virtual schooling isn't working at all. They're not doing what they need to do. I am on them screaming constantly, "Get [indiscernible] to your Pearson Math." "I can't find it." "Well, I don't where the hell it is." I'm in there trying to find the folders that the teacher set up digitally. I can't understand the apps inside of the program inside of the whatever. I'm looking at this agenda. I don't know where any of these things are. I finally called her. I said, "I need to schedule a Zoom with you because I don't know how to find the stuff you're telling my kid to do. That's not an excuse because he should probably know where this is because you do Zooms with him, but I can't even find it to tell him to do it. I don't know how to do it." I technically own a tech company, so that's scary.

Zibby: It should be intuitive enough that a bright forty-year-old woman could figure it out.

Meredith: I sat there and I was like, I don't see Pearson Math. I assume there would be an icon that said Pearson. It's a textbook. I know Pearson textbooks. I couldn't find it. It was buried inside of each daily folder, not an app on the thing. I'm looking for it. Then I said to him, "I need you to do the last twelve of these." He goes in and he did them. He's like, "Can I go outside and play now?" It's like, I guess. I don't even know if I should be mad about this. We have been on the fence about sending them back. Of course, masks, hand sanitizer, talking to them about the way they need to act when they're at school. I even asked, can I go to the school and watch the kids change classes? No. Okay, you don't want me on campus. I get it. I've even thought about sneaking around the school during the day to just peek. I assumed I'll probably get arrested for that. I think I'm leaning towards sending them back because the environment we have here is not conducive to learning. They're not learning anything. Then you feel guilty about that.

Zibby: [Indiscernible] to convince you in any way, it's been two days of school for my kids. I was scared to send them back. I was like, really, just for socialization? Isn't survival so much more important than that? Where is the line? How do you balance? My kids' schools did let me go in and see. Well, one of the schools did. I have a kindergartener, a first grader, and two seventh graders. The little guy's school, I got to see. They're doing a really good job. One of the schools, I was more worried about the parents on the street in pickup. They had thought everything through for the kids and not necessarily the parents. I sent an email to the top five administrators being like, here are twelve free and easy things you could do to make this pickup and drop-off better and safer. That night, they sent an email out to the whole school saying, here's how we've changed it. I was like, okay, I made a difference. Good. All the touchpoints have to line up.

Meredith: Exactly, and those aren't the things that you're thinking about in a normal world where we're not freaked out to be within six feet of someone. It's so weird now. I've noticed I'm playing a game of freeze tag in the grocery store. If somebody comes the wrong way down the aisle and going to reach for something, I just immediately stop. I stand frozen until I can see which way they're going to go. Sometimes people just get right up next to you. Then you're panicked. You're trying to walk backwards while you're frozen. It looks ridiculous. God forbid I'm asymptomatic and you're eighty and I'm breathing. I have my mask, but I don't want to give you something. I would feel terrible if I found out in some way, shape, or form that I perpetuated this. I'm doing my best. It's weird because we don't even know how to act in public anymore. I think we've scared the children enough in the sense of the mask stays on no matter what. You're not the uncool kid if you keep your mask on at the bus stop. It is totally the cool kid thing to do. Keep the hand sanitizer in your pocket. I'm going to refill those, make sure that they're full to the brim every day when you go in. Make sure that you're washing your hands frequently. I know they're doing that at the schools. I know they're making the kids wash their hands in between classes or at lunch, at least at the elementary level, because I did get an email about that. The middle and the high school, you got to hope you've given them that knowledge. I have a sixth grader who's a middle schooler. Then I have a high schooler. I just have to cross my fingers and believe that my kids are going to do what we've been doing from day one, which is making the best choice we can for keeping ourselves and others safe. They're kids.

Zibby: My mother-in-law and grandmother-in-law passed away from COVID over the last couple weeks.

Meredith: Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry.

Zibby: We had a whole medical odyssey with my mother-in-law that lasted six weeks, three in the ICU, three in a regular hospital. It was awful and gut-wrenching. My kids were aware of it the whole time. I think we're particularly sensitive to norms.

Meredith: I would say so.

Zibby: It's so crazy. I run into people who don't know. Yes, I posted about it, but not everybody's on Instagram and not everybody reads everything. I run into people and they're like, "Aside from the whole COVID thing, how was your summer?" I'm like, "Not good." [laughs]

Meredith: Because of the whole COVID thing.

Zibby: The whole COVID thing affects people. It might affect you. If you would just take three steps back, maybe it wouldn't. [laughs]

Meredith: To your point, I have seen posts where people said, I don't even know somebody who's had it. It's like, well, you follow me and I have friends who have had it. So you do know somebody, whether it's just on social media or not. I have several people in the blogging space who have come down with it and have been public about having it. If you want to just talk about the celebrities that have come out, you do know. Saying I don't know anybody or it's not affected me is not really a true statement in that sense because we do know people. Three doors down, our neighbor, before we had moved in here -- we moved during the pandemic. The whole neighborhood was on lockdown because the neighbor down the street had it. His wife never got it. His kids never got it. He worked at Amazon, and he got it. You know people. Even if you think you don't, you do.

Zibby: Now you know me too, and I know people.

Meredith: Right, now you're listening to this. That's tragic. This is absolutely tragic. Any way you want to slice that, this is a tragic event that your family endured. It can't be taken lightly. We have to mitigate risk where we can.

Zibby: I'm glad to find a kindred spirit on the whole thing. I feel like people are so different in different ways. It's nice to speak to somebody who's so aligned. That’s great.

Meredith: I feel it.

Zibby: Meanwhile, we've barely talked about your book, Ask Me What's for Dinner One More Time: Inappropriate Thoughts on Motherhood. I feel like we've gotten such a sense of you. There's so much in here like mommy martyrdom and sex and parenting. You have so many funny things and poignant things, raising an autistic child. There is a lot in this book. We obviously don't have time to talk about it all, but it was really amazing of you to share yourself like that with readers the way you do all the time in your entertainment, so to speak. It was really awesome. I just want to ask at least, would you have any advice for aspiring authors having written this and now onto your third and all the rest?

Meredith: I would definitely say the hardest part, which most people say, is actually just starting the book. I said for a while, I'm going to write another one. I'm going to write another one. It wasn't until I just committed to saying I'm going to put pen to paper, so to speak -- you have to get started. Once you get started, whether you self-publish, because I did self-publish my first, or go with a publishing house, you really need to take whatever you're -- like I said, the idea of this book was to say to moms, you're not alone. Here are some examples of how we probably share a lot of the same things, how we've gone through a lot of the same things. Then you've just got to figure out how to chunk that out. I looked at this book, and I think how I'm going to look at future books, as chapter books for moms because moms don't have a lot of time, especially to read books. The Audible version of this book actually performed very well which I was excited to see. Anybody who picks up this book, you can open it to any section and read a story. This doesn't have to be a start to finish. This is, pick it up almost like those -- do you remember the books as a -- I just bought my son these for his birthday. It was Choose Your Own Adventure. You could be, oh, I've got to go to page eighty-seven now. We're going to meet a dragon. When I was writing this book, I thought about that.

I was like, I want a mom to be able to pick this up and say, I've got ten minutes. You can go to any chapter in any section and read and have a story. You don't have to keep reading if you can't at that moment. Then I have people who have reviewed it and messaged me and said, "I read it in four hours. My husband let me have the whole night off." I loved how she said that. I giggled because I could feel that one in my bones. She read the book cover to cover. She's like, "I laughed. I cried. I laughed. I cried. I laughed more. I cried more. I pissed my pants. I laughed." I was like, okay, great. I did my job. That was my job. I did it. I felt a lot of relief and excitement and kind of a euphoria from that, from reading these reviews. I got some shitty reviews. I'm not going to lie. I don't know if I can say that, sorry, poopy reviews. One woman told me that I am not funny and I should rethink my entire career, so there's that. Overall, it was such a wonderful experience to read through those. I would tell any author who's getting ready, make sure that whatever the core of why you want to write this, get to that and stick with it. Don't let anybody divert you from that path. At first, it was like, "You definitely need to have around four hundred pages." I said, "Of what? Nobody needs four hundred pages of this. This is a chapter book for moms." "Moms don't read chapter books." I said, "They will. Every mom wants a chapter book because they don't have time for this. We're busy." I stuck to my guns with that. I think it did what it was supposed to do and hopefully will continue because I really would like to see this as the book that people give at the baby shower, at those types of events. It's the stuff that people don't necessarily want to talk about, but we all go through it as moms.

Zibby: It's so true. Thank you, Meredith. Thanks for sharing all this. Thanks for writing. Thanks for helping so many moms.

Meredith: Thank you. I appreciate it. I was very excited to see you holding the book and talking about it a little bit and have the review for GMA and everything. It was great. I didn't even know you had a copy of it. Then when they emailed me, I was like, really? I ran and I found you in the feed. I went, yes, this is so exciting. It was great. Then when they told me we'd do the podcast, I thought, this is fantastic. I was so excited.

Zibby: Good. Awesome. Me too.

Meredith: Thank you very much. It was wonderful speaking with you. I appreciate that you read it and enjoyed it. That makes me happy.

Zibby: Good, I'm so glad. Take care, Meredith.

Meredith: Bye.

Zibby: Bye.

Lan Cao and Harlan Margaret Van Cao, FAMILY IN SIX TONES

Zibby Owens: This was one of the funniest podcasts I've ever done. I did it with a mother and daughter and watched them as they were fighting and rolling eyes at each other and all the rest about their beautiful memoir. It really spoke a lot to their communication. I found it pretty hilarious. I hope you will too. You can also watch this on YouTube, as you can all my episodes now. Anyway, it's called Family in Six Tones: A Refugee Mother, an American Daughter. It's by Lan Cao and her daughter, Harlan Margaret Van Cao. Lan is the author of Monkey Bridge and The Lotus and the Storm and most recently of the scholarly work, Culture in Law and Development: Nurturing Positive Change. She's a professor of law at the Chapman University Fowler School of Law and an internationally recognized expert specializing in international business and trade, international law and development. She has taught at Brooklyn Law School, Duke University School of Law, University of Michigan Law School, and William & Mary Law School. Her daughter, Harlan Margaret Van Cao, graduated from high school in June 2020 and is now attending UCLA, although as she tells us, remotely. She's not happy about that. She was born in Williamsburg, Virginia and moved to Southern California when she was ten.

It's so nice to be with both of you.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: You're so pretty.

Zibby: I am? That's nice of you to say. Thank you. This is called Family in Six Tones, as you know, I'm telling this to viewers, not just you, A Refugee Mother, an American Daughter. This was so beautifully written. Your words, both of you are amazing writers. Do I pronounce it Lan or Lahn?

Lan Cao: Lahn.

Zibby: Lan, your writing is just -- I mean, both. Now I feel like I'm being rude to you, Harlan. Your writing is so gorgeous. I was searching in my bedside table for a pen so I could underline some of the things that you said. Anyway, why don't you guys tell listeners what this book is about. Also, what inspired you to even sit down and do this memoir and to do it together?

Harlan: The publishing house actually approached us for it because they had heard an NPR interview that was released on the Tet Offensive that had actually been recorded years before where I would ask her questions about her time in Vietnam. By the time it came out, I was about fifteen, sixteen. She had a lot of connections there from her first two books. They contacted us. They said, "I think Harlan's of age now. Maybe we could make this a coming-of-age book that also links to themes of immigration." Obviously, my mother, her first two books are greatly based on the war. To have two people, it's important to have both of us because I think it created something most people can relate to on some level. It's not just something totally separate. It's also about growing up under completely different circumstances, also how the immigration experience affects the family and how the family affects the next generation's life.

Zibby: What was it like collaborating on this project together?

Lan: It was unstable. [laughter] I wish I could say it was cathartic, but I think during the time when we were going through it, it was very turbulent for us because it's hard to collaborate with another person even if you're writing non-personal stuff. I do a lot of legal writing. I have many, many legal articles. Only one was a collaboration. It's hard because you have to take the other person's point of view into consideration. When it's something so personal, and especially between a mother and daughter, when the wires are there that connect us but they can also fray very easily and electricity is conducted through the wire, sometimes it feels like the insulation part of the wire somehow dissipated and we're just now frying each other. It was hard because we had to decide what to include, what not to include. Also, Harlan wanted to include things I didn't want to include. We had to come up with a compromise. The reason why we came up with a compromise was because I felt like it's her first experience writing, so I didn't want to silence her even though she wanted to write about things that were hard for me to write about. In the end, everything that's on the page was a product of a back and forth. We also didn't even write together. It was very hard -- right, Harlan? -- to write in the same space. We were totally separate. We only came together towards the end to read it. At first, we read each other's, and it was explosive.

Harlan: We only read each other's stuff at the end when we had to. It was a requirement. She came to me and she would tell me, "It's time to read each other's stuff." She seemed scared to tell me. It was already difficult for me. At the time when I got the book deal, they wanted it to be greatly centered around my mom's previous two books, meaning the brand is about talking about the war. I don't have a lot of say about it except for what it's done to my life. I can't speak for everybody. I don't want to sound entitled or anything. I also had that mindset of a teenager. I have so much more I want to say, so why can't I say that? Then when I agreed to direct it all toward a theme and then on top of it, she was nervous to write about certain stuff, it made me upset because I felt like I was in a box. There's only one thing I could write about, and that's so hard to expand in an interesting way. I never imagined I'd be writing for adults, even though kids don't really read anymore, which is really sad. It's hard because I'm thinking probably women -- I'm not going to guess your age. That's so rude.

Zibby: I'm forty-four. It's okay. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I am fine. I am at peace with my age. It's okay.

Harlan: Adults, everybody's read it. It's not any age that I expected I would ever write for when I was little thinking I was a writer. That definitely brought out a lot of confusing things for me. It wasn't just the writing process that made it hard to collaborate. We were just totally in different parts of our lives. I'm going through high school. Everything about us is different. I would write at two in the morning. She would write throughout the day little by little.

Zibby: Wow, are you even speaking to each other? [laughter] I feel like I've intruded on a family squabble like there was a huge fight before the camera went on and now you're pretending like everything's fine. You don't have to pretend for me.

Lan: We're in quarantine, so we're stuck. She's doing her college online. You can imagine. It's all pretty eerie.

Zibby: Aren't you at UCLA, or did I make that up?

Harlan: Yes.

Zibby: So they're not letting anybody go?

Harlan: No. It's actually very depressing for me. I picked UCLA because of -- you pick the school because of what it looks like. If you have two options that are kind of the same in what it will do for you, the campus was important to me. I chose UCLA over Berkeley, but now Berkeley moved people in.

Zibby: UCLA is in a beautiful part of LA. I love LA. You will have the best time. This time will pass. It's a blip. You will get there. It was the right decision. Don't second-guess. I took a writing class at UCLA right after I graduated from college. My husband always makes fun of me when we drive by it. We spend a lot of time in LA now where he works or he used to work. Every time we drive by, he's like, "Look, your alma mater." I'm like, "I did not go there. I took one class." I wrote some essay about my first bra-buying experience with my mother. That does not make me an alum of there, but thank you. Anyway, I know it's a really tricky time for everybody. That was so sad to hear you say that nobody reads anymore. Do you really feel like none of your friends read?

Harlan: Not really. We like to get information very fast. A lot of kids nowadays, it's insane, have ADHD and stuff from the technology. I think it all bleeds into one. It's been shown phones might cause ADHD or something. A lot of kids, they don't have the attention span. They prefer movies and short articles. A lot of the news that we get now is on social media. The social media page will give it to you as quickly as possible, like five words and then that's it.

Zibby: That's a little disheartening.

Harlan: The only time that we really do read a lot -- I'm talking about the people that I know.

Zibby: I get it.

Harlan: We will read if there's -- do you remember The Fault in Our Stars, for example?

Zibby: Yeah.

Harlan: The movie came out. Then everyone's like, okay, I'll read it now because it's trendy. That's when someone would read.

Lan: That's very disheartening and depressing for me. When I first arrived in this country, my only solace was books. That's why I wanted Harlan, let's say, to love music. I feel like music and books are things that you can always turn to when other things that are not within your control are upside down. There will always be something you can't control that hurt you. It could be a person. It could be a wider event. You could always go to that part that is the music part, the book part. You can immerse yourself in a different world. If you don't have that, it just seems -- maybe they're different and they don't need that. It just seems very different for me. That was my solace. I was just hooked on things like 1001 Arabian Nights because it exposed me to distant shores. It's also a form of traveling too.

Zibby: I completely agree, especially now. Especially in the very beginning of the pandemic when we literally could not leave our house at all for week after week after week, I feel like, oh, look at this, now I'm having coffee and a glass of wine on a terrace in Tuscany. Here I am in China in this little apartment. I feel like books could take me everywhere. I totally agree with you. No matter what you're going through, you can just open up a book and you're immediately somewhere. It's this empathy and escape. That makes me sad. I bet there's a way, now this will be my new mission, of how to get -- I also love social media. [laughs] I have to get myself off Instagram with a hook. There has to be a way to keep that writerly escapist --

Lan: -- [Indiscernible] books, I hope that will work for the youngsters.

Zibby: Yes. Hopefully, this podcast will change everything. I try really hard. I hadn’t been targeting young people, necessarily, not that I'm so old, but that hadn’t been my mission. It was more just to keep people reading who are already reading or who miss reading because life is so crazy. Books are, I just think they're the coolest. I think everybody should be doing it. All right, I'll tackle that tomorrow. [laughs] Back to your book, some of the stories in here -- Lan, I just wanted to talk to you about being thirteen and having to leave your country and coming over here just with a family friend and finally realizing that you weren’t going back and watching Saigon fall in 1975 and the whole thing and how you picked yourself back up. How do you recover from something like that? How do you deal with that separation from family and home and homeland and just go about your business? How does that work? Maybe this is your way, still writing about it and everything, but tell me a little more about that.

Lan: I think that my parents had two different approaches. My father was always telling me -- it seemed paradoxical what he said because the one statement has a paradox within in. Remember what's important and forget it immediately. So just don't focus on the past. Yet I find that that is a very hard thing for me to do because my mother was always dwelling on the past. As I read more, I hear things by Faulkner like the past is, it's not dead, it's not even past. There's always the past. I don't think that one really recovers. Just like if you have a death in the family of somebody very close, yes, you will move on, but it's not like that part is not forever inside of you. The notion of losing something, of having the rug yanked out from under you because you never expected certain things to happen, they were very spectacular. They took a very spectacular form for me because suddenly leaving the country and starting a new high school was spectacularly different. It helps me to compartmentalize, to just do this and this and this, but never recovering because I know that I can be easily brought back. I feel sometimes like when I'm walking my dog and I had a retractable leash, I feel like I am the dog. Anybody, actually, can just press that button on that leash and it will bring me back to '75 or '68 even though it looks like I'm farther away now. There's this leash that takes me farther away from that part but can be brought back very easily. It'll be startling for me. I have been thinking of myself, I'm farther away from that now. How did I get back so easily to that vulnerable spot again?

Harlan: How did you recover?

Lan: Never recover. Just sort of move on to the next thing or doing the next thing, but it's not really a recovery. I know, let's say, even when I'm dealing with Harlan, I know that the way I parent her is very much based on that experience that I have not recovered from. I'll push her to always do well in school. Maybe all parents do that, but I think mine is more urgent. I feel very much like if she were to lose everything, one thing that nobody can take away from you because it's inside you is your education. A fire can come and burn down your house. You can lose all of your possessions. You can lose everybody you love. If you have your education, it is the foundation that is portable. It's not geographically anchored towards any place. While education maybe for other parents can be, this is a way for you to move forward in life, mine is, yes, of course, but it also has this no one can take it from you feeling, which I felt happened when our life was taken from us and we had to start a new one. In that sense, I can see how the fact that I've never really recovered even affects something like the emphasis I place on certain things for her, which can be very frustrating for her because she does not have that experience.

Zibby: How do you feel about that, Harlan?

Harlan: I've always been very conscious of -- I think it's just because I'm really interested in psychology and people. When I was really little, from a really young age, I figured out that my mom parented because of her experience. Also, it's very easy to call her overbearing or controlling, which she is sometimes, but it's hard to be angry about it because it comes from a very innocent place. She doesn't mean to do that. I'm not saying any mom means to come off as controlling, but she literally can't help herself. I can tell. We'll have a conversation or an argument, and we keep talking over each other. I'm like, can you give me two minutes? I'm just going to say something. Just be quiet. She's like sitting on her hands. She can't even stay still. It's true.

Lan: Somebody is stating something, if they're going to have two minutes of conversation and the piece that follows the first statement --

Harlan: -- She said what I say isn't true, but it's true to me. It's not true to her because she's so defensive. What I'm trying to get at is that in the past, most of the time, kids can tell their parents, this upset me when you did this to me or this hurt my feelings. With my mom, she doesn't want to hear that it hurt my feelings because she's defensive. People who are defensive don't admit that they're defensive because that's the first trait. It's a thing that goes back and forth. I know she's not defensive because she sucks as a person. She's defensive because her whole life has been about being on defense. Even when I talk about her being defensive, she doesn't want to hear it either. It's totally true when you hear the conversation. A lot of the time, an argument, even about the book, will start at something where -- I don't really try to start the argument. I'm good just being quiet the whole day. As the parent, she wants to correct and make sure that I'm good when I leave the house officially and start my own life. She'll start a conversation a lot of the time and even in that conversation I see her psychology. That's not to say I'm so much better. I'm a kid, but I know so much. No, that's not what I mean at all. I mean because we know each other pretty well, I can tell where each thing comes from. I really want to help her. I started in therapy, actually, when I was fifteen from stuff that was going on in school. When I was in therapy, the therapist's job, you kind of love and you hate your therapist because they open you up. They pry you open. It bothered me sometimes. She would tell me things like, I'm seeing a pattern and this and that. I'm like, you're obviously scorekeeping in a hostile way. I took it as an attack. She was actually just pointing out that I'm just like my mom. I didn't want to hear that because that's the worst thing possible even though she's great.

Zibby: No matter how great your mom might be, nobody ever wants to hear that.

Harlan: Nobody wants to hear that.

Zibby: In part, it almost feels like you're fighting -- you have all these natural feelings about your relationship. Yet there's this invisible thing you're fighting with also. You understand it logically, but I feel like emotionally it's hard to really digest. You know your mom had this experience, but still, you're annoyed, right? [laughs]

Harlan: Right. I always thought, why can't she have the experience and leave me alone? [laughs] We talk about it. We suffer through it together. Then she can trust me to live my own life. I was always resentful of, she'll expose me to everything that can possibly go wrong. Then she'll show me the saddest parts of the world when we travel. Not the saddest parts. We go to nice places. She'll tell me a story. She'll read me a book. She'll make sure I'm really educated. She'll make me into someone who had an adult mindset, but when it comes to my own life, I'm four years old suddenly. It's very interesting how moms, they always say, just go explore. But when it comes to the kid exploring, they're really scared to do that.

Zibby: I don't think I've ever felt like I could relate to both sides of an argument more than I feel right this moment. On the one hand, I'm like you. Then I'm the mom too. I have four of my own kids, and so I totally get where you're coming from. As much as you love and want your kids to go off, it's like a part of you. It's like your right hand is out there walking around. It's a part of you. You don't mean to, necessarily. It's like if you're about to touch the fire, you want to grab your hand back. It's just, you do it. It's instinctive. Coming from a past like yours, Lan, where you've had all of this trauma before you were even a teenager, essentially, it's a lot. It's a lot to bring into, what should we have for dinner? I'm actually amazed that the two of you got this book done now that I've talked to you. [laughs]

Harlan: So are all my friends that had to hear about it for two years.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. Does this now make you still want to be a writer, Harlan, or are you over it now?

Harlan: I do want to write movies more. If I'm being honest, I think movies are more my thing, if I could get up the nerve. Also, I really just want to make a lot of money and then give it to a lot of animals. That's important to me too. I would write one by myself. Maybe one day when I'm older, it'd be really cool to end a career -- starting it with a memoir and then ending it with a memoir. Maybe when I'm sixty I'll write about what it was like to write with my mom. That would be cool.

Lan: She's very good with conversation. I think a movie script would be good for her because it's back and forth.

Harlan: I hate writing description. I like dialogue. I don't like descriptions.

Zibby: Lan, did you just write like this from when you first started writing, or did you learn to do it? The way you even describe things is so beautiful. You can tell even the way you speak with all of your analogies, how you think about thing in terms of just the beauty and how you can talk about it. I'm trying to find a quote that I had. Of course, now I cannot find it. Maybe we could talk about your detachment, that your mother -- that was actually a Harlan passage. Never mind. [laughs] I had [indiscernible] passages picked out, and that's because I didn't have the thing. Here, I'll just read this one. "It might seem strange that being a refugee and being a mother feel so similar to me, but both involve a torturous and lifelong drive in search of home and security: in one case, for one's self; and the other, even more furiously, for one's child. The journey of a refugee away from war and loss toward peace and a new life and the journey of a mother raising a child to be secure and happy are both steep paths filled with detours and stumbling blocks. For me, both hold mystery." That's beautiful. I had never heard being a refugee compared to being a mother in quite the same way before, which you do throughout. Tell me a little more about your actual writing. Maybe your novel writing was the practice you needed.

Lan: I think I wrote basically because I read. I love to write. I'm not talking about legal scholarship. I like to write, the kind of writing I do for writing, because it's very unruly. To me, it's like a dreamscape. Even in this book, which is very much based on our lives, it's the stuff that is underneath the surface that I'm interested in. A lot of times when you write even a memoir where you know things that happened already, I feel very much like I enter into a world that I normally don't enter in my awake life. It's like going to sleep and you dream. You can never tell yourself what dream you're going to dream. The act of writing is very similar to me. It unravels. It unspools. It taps into a part of the self that is a little bit more of the unconscious digestion of what happens in the surface of daily life. I think that from having read so much, it helped me to write. I didn't take a writing course, per se. If you read, you just know what works for you. In many ways, writing is very similar to other forms of creativity. For example, Harlan likes to watch movies. Also when I watch movies, I see -- this helps me with writing. I see the angle of the camera. I see how the director places an object which maybe recur in the next scene. These are devices that are very helpful when you're trying to construct a story. In the movie, it's visual. In writing, it's less visual. We all use the same device, which is a premonition, a foreshadowing, recurring images. I combine that with more of the dreamscape.

Zibby: If both of you would give advice to aspiring authors, what would you say?

Lan: I would say that it helped me when I first started that I knew nothing about the business. Having that beginner's -- I remember there's a book I love called Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. A lot of times we think of knowledge as something we accumulate, and the more, the better. Sometimes removing excess is also really good, things that are just baggage. I think knowing too much, actually, about something can be a hinderance because it makes you feel overwhelmed. Then you don't get to the core. If the core is, I want to write, then you should just write and not worry about the next step. Shedding knowledge, actually, for me, was good for writing. If I had known how complicated the business is, I don't think I would've had the innocence.

Harlan: When someone writes, it's important to understand that -- I can only speak for the memoir, fiction, or something, not research. You're writing just about life. When you write about your own life or you write about an ordinary life, it's not superhero or something like that, it's something that is possible for everybody to go through. Every book is really just about different human relationships. Everybody's going to experience that at one point or another. Your job is just to say it in a way that's aesthetically pleasing, that people like to read about. I guess to just keep as much reliability as much as possible and remember that even though your writing is different and you're talking about something different, you are very similar to everybody else.

Lan: You have to have something universal. I think all human yearnings are universal. When you write about your yearning and how it relates to the world, I think that it will create that connection with the reader, which is what you want to do because writing is so solitary. You're just writing by yourself. It feels very, very disconnected sometimes. If you know that there is this connection you're going to make, then it's very helpful.

Zibby: I can tell you I felt super connected to both of you having read this and hearing your innermost thoughts and how literary they were and your anger. It's great. It's really good stuff. Then to be able to chat with you is [indiscernible/crosstalk].

Lan: Thank you so much, Zibby.

Zibby: Thank you. Family in Six Tones. Thank you so much for all of your time.

Harlan: We have such a busy schedule. We have time.

Lan: We'll follow you on your Instagram too. We'll do that.

Zibby: All right, great. Have a great day. Buh-bye.

Ken Follett, THE EVENING AND THE MORNING

Zibby Owens: I was so honored to interview Ken Follett who is one of the world's best-loved authors, selling more than 170 million copies of his 32 books. Follett's first best seller was Eye of the Needle, a spy story set in the second world war. In 1989, The Pillars of the Earth was published and has since become Follett's most popular novel. It reached number one on best-seller lists around the world and was an Oprah's Book Club pick. Its sequels, World Without End and A Column of Fire, proved equally popular. The Kingsbridge series has sold more than forty million copies worldwide. Follet lives in Hertfordshire, England, with his wife Barbara. Between them they have five children, six grandchildren, and two Labradors. His new book is called The Evening and the Morning.

Ken Follett: Hello, Zibby.

Zibby: Hi, how are you?

Ken: I'm good. How are you?

Zibby: I'm good. Thank you so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Ken: It's a pleasure.

Zibby: I have to tell you that I grew up with your books all over my house. I called my dad. I was like, "Dad, guess who I'm interviewing?" He was like, "Those are amazing." He read almost all your books and thought they were fast paced and thrilling and amazing. Now that I have your new one, I can't wait to give it to him. I'm thrilled.

Ken: That’s great.

Zibby: How do you do it? How do you keep creating these new worlds and writing for decade after decade in such a powerful way? How do you come up with all these ideas?

Ken: Well, I don't have to do anything else. [laughter] I sit here all day and come up with ideas. It's not like I'm trying to fit this in. It's been my job for forty-five years. Of course, like all authors, I was born with a vivid imagination. Nobody becomes an author without that. It's sometimes hard for people to understand. You asked me the question that we're always asked. Where do you get your ideas? It's hard. The point is that they come to us all the time. When I was a boy, I was never myself. I was always a pirate or a cowboy or the captain of a spaceship. I spent my childhood pretending to be somebody else. Now I've spent most of my working life imagining stuff. It comes. These ideas come sometimes when you don't want them. You're having a nice conversation with somebody and you think to yourself, what would happen if there was an earthquake now? What would we do? Where would we go? The answer is, they come easily. Of course, the trick is, the more difficult thing is to share them with people. That's important. That's the craft. That's the skill of what we do, to write things down in such a way that when people are reading them, they can enter into what we've imagined and it will be vivid for them and they’ll care about it.

Zibby: Wow. How do you do that? [laughs] How did you hone your craft? When you started at the very beginning of your career and you tried doing this, did it come out like this? Do you feel yourself getting better over time? Did it all come naturally, or did you have other tricks and tools in your toolbox that made it what it is today?

Ken: I think for all authors, you learn nearly everything that you need to know by reading. All of us, I never met an author who wasn't a voracious reader from a very young age. I learned to read when I was four years old. I made my mother teach me to read because I loved stories. I was always pestering people to read to me. I can remember this. It's my earliest memory, actually. Both of my parents, all four grandparents would read to me. Both my parents come from big families. I had lots of uncles and aunts. There were loads of people to read to me, and it was never enough. I'd say, "Read me another one." They'd say, "No, that's enough for today, Ken." I'd say, "Please, please." You can imagine, can't you? I desperately, desperately wanted to learn to read. I learned to read young. I've been doing it ever since. By the time you get to your early twenties and you sit down to try and write some fiction, you know a heck of a lot. You know what a sentence is and a paragraph and a chapter. You know about dialogue. You know about describing landscape and describing people because you read so much of that. Of course, it's not enough, but it's most of what you need to know.

If anybody ever says to me, "I'd really like to be a writer. What advice can you give me?" I always say, "Do you read much?" If they say, "No, not really," I say, "I'm sorry." If you want to be a concert violinist, you cannot start at the age of twenty-one. Something similar is true of being an author. If you haven't read a few hundred novels by the time you get to your early twenties, it's too late. That's a big thing. On top of that, I could do action. I could do dialogue. There were some things I had to learn. When I started, I wrote ten unsuccessful books, by the way, before Eye of the Needle. Even though I knew a lot, I clearly did not know enough at that point in my life. I had to learn to emphasize the emotion. I could do two people having an argument, a quarrel. I could write their dialogue, but I wasn't good at saying how they were feeling about it. That was something that I had to consciously concentrate on. Don't just tell the reader what happened. Tell the reader how it feels.

Are they angry, indignant, scared, resentful, all of these emotions? Of course, I now know, but I had to learn it, for the book to be successful, the reader has to share the emotions of the characters in the story. When a character is scared, the reader is like this. Something sad happens in the story, there's a tear in the reader's eye. This is a miracle, of course, because the reader knows that this story was made up. Follett made it up sitting in this chair in this room, but it doesn't make any difference, does it? If the scene is well-written, the fact that you know it never happened makes no difference. If somebody's bullied in the story, you feel indignant. You want to bang the table and say, hey, that's not fair. The reader's emotional reaction to the story is paramount. If you can do that, you've got a successful book. If you can't do that, it won't be a best seller. It might still be a good book. It might be clever. It might be witty. It might be brilliantly well-written. It might be informative. But it won't be a best-selling novel if readers aren't moved emotionally by it.

Zibby: Interesting. Here's the whole secret. This is great.

Ken: I think so. I think that's the basic secret.

Zibby: I'm a little discouraged because only one of my four kids seems to be really into reading. Now I feel like I have no shot at having perhaps one author among them. That's it. [laughs]

Ken: It's like that, though, isn't it? I've got some grandchildren who are absolutely, as I was, fascinated by stories from a very young age, and others who would rather watch TV. I've got a son actually, a stepson, who never read at all as a boy. He is a very successful film editor. All that time he spent in front of the TV, I thought he was wasting his time. I thought he should be reading a book. I was wrong. [laughs] He got to the age of twenty-one and he understood the grammar of television the way I understood the grammar of language. It's the joy of genetics, I suppose, that your kids aren't necessarily like you.

Zibby: It's true. I feel that way when my kids say they want to watch TV, this and that. I hear about people like Simone Biles, the Olympic gymnast, who would watch hour after hour of gymnastics on TV. That's really how she was teaching herself. Then I'm like, oh, no, thirty minutes today. What if? What if they could be Simone Biles if I just let them watch more gymnastics or something? You never know. My husband is stepdad to my four kids. I know he's always looking for advice or a friendly ear for other stepdads. Since you referenced your stepchildren, I was wondering what you think some of the hallmarks of success of being a good stepdad might be so I can give him some pointers?

Ken: My philosophy was, you don't need your stepchildren to like you, but you want them to trust you. You want them to see you as the person they can go to and say, "I've got a problem." You don't want to be their friend. Of course, they become hugely important in your life and you love them and they love you, but you don't try to be their friend. You don't say, "We're going to be pals, son, aren't we?" That's crap. You need to have the Advil. "Ken, I've got a headache." "Try taking a couple of these. Then if it doesn't go away in about half an hour, we'll think again." That’s the kind of thing you've got to -- you’ve got to have the cold remedy. You've got to have the tampons, actually. When they're teenage girls, things happen suddenly or they’ve forgot to bring any. "What am I going to --" "Okay, I happen to have some in my suitcase." [laughs] All of that, condoms, I'm afraid. You’ve got to be the go-to person when mom isn't there. Of course, they’ll go to mom. You've got to be the go-to person for a problem. You’ve got to be equipped for that. Anticipate. Make sure that anything that's likely to go wrong and they come to you with a problem, you're going to be able to help. Without even thinking about you, that's how you sort of grow into the parental role with your stepchildren, which isn't about being liked. It's about being trusted.

Zibby: Who knew? Wow. I feel like as a mom I'm a total failure. I don't always have all those things on hand. Well, certainly not the latter. I guess it's good to defer that to somebody else's responsibility tree, if you will. I had a question, actually, about the beginning. It's not even technically the book. In the beginning of The Evening and the Morning, you say, "In memoriam: EF." I was just wondering, who is EF? Why dedicate this book to this person?

Ken: He was my son. He died. He died two years ago at the age of forty-nine. He had leukemia. This is the first book that I've published since his death. That's why it's dedicated to him. It is the worst thing that can happen to you, to have a child die. You know your parents are going to die. You expect that. It's sad when it happens, but it's not a shock. When a child dies, it's an absolutely terrible thing. I didn't want to make a big fuss about it, but I did want to dedicate the book to his memory.

Zibby: I'm so sorry. That's terrible. I'm so sorry. Did you find it hard to get back into writing? Is it more that you're so used to doing it, this is just what you do? Was it an escape for you? Did it help?

Ken: Work is an escape for me. It's always been like that. If anything is going wrong in my life, then I can lose myself in the imaginary world. It's some kind of relief and consolation. Of course, you never get over the death of a child. It's with you. It's always with you. I was nineteen when my son was born. I was a very young father. He's still in my life. I think about him every day. I hear a pop song on the radio and I think, he'd like that. He and I would talk about what the chords were, that kind of thing. All the time, that happens. He's still in my life even though he's passed.

Zibby: I'm sorry. I recently lost -- not to compare in any way, but just grief in general. From COVID, I recently lost my mother-law-in and grandmother-in-law both this summer. My husband, whose mother it is, and his sister, they keep reaching for their phones and trying to call her. It's only been a couple weeks for us. Everything he thinks of, he wants to tell her. That's the most frustrating, maybe not, but it's not high on the list of frustrations for him, the not being able to reach her anymore and just thinking of her constantly. Losing a child, I'm sorry. Do you feel like your personal things going on in your personal life, do you have that seep into your characters in some way? Do you channel those emotions? You said that was something you struggled with earlier. Obviously as life has progressed, you've developed more and more experiences and emotions yourself. Do you feel like you now infuse your characters with even more of that just because of life experience in a way?

Ken: I think that does happen. I don't do it consciously. I don't consciously use things that have happened to me. I find that almost without my noticing it, parts of my life do creep into the story. For example, when I first married Barbara, which is now thirty-five years ago, I had never before been in what we now call a blended family. I married Barbara and she brought along with her, three children: two teenage girls and a little boy. This was a new experience for me. Soon afterwards, I wrote The Pillars of the Earth. Tom Builder has a blended family. It wouldn't have occurred to me to do that earlier until it had happened to me. I suppose I could've made it up, but it just didn't cross my mind that that would be an interesting thing to do and an interesting kind of family to have at the heart of a story. Once that had happened and I knew about some of the challenges and joys and disappointments of that kind of family, then I could put one in a book. Yes, they do. These things creep in. Eventually, every major thing that happens to you will end up in some form in a book, maybe heavily disguised and quite possibly in a form that nobody else will recognize. As the author, you'll think to yourself, I know why that occurred to me. It's because something similar happened to me.

Zibby: I know that there are a lot of authors who have a lot of success at the beginning of their careers and then feel this pressure to continue churning out just as great product as in the start. Sometimes that anxiety, I feel like, gets in the way, even from a big successful first book to a second book. How do you manage all of that? Do you ever have a morning where you're like, that's it, my talent has run out, this book's going to be terrible? Do you ever have that self-doubt inside?

Ken: Touch wood, not yet. Certainly after Eye of the Needle, my first success, I thought about that a lot. I really wanted to have another success. I was aware, of course, that quite a lot of people write one good book. I knew that Eye of the Needle might have been my one good book. I really didn't want it to be the one. I wanted to spend my life doing this. I liked it so much. I was aware of that danger. Then Triple was a best seller, but I thought, yeah, but people bought that because they liked Eye of the Needle. I thought, I'll believe it if the third book is a best seller. The Key to Rebecca was very successful. At that point, I said, okay, I am going to be a writer now for the rest of my life. That's going to be my career. It's going to be my life. I was very glad because that was what I wanted. There is a certain amount of pressure. I don't mind it. It's good pressure. It's the thought that occurs to me if I'm tempted ever to be a bit of a slacker, to say, that seems not really very good, but it's good enough, if I'm tempted to think that, then I think of all the people who really liked my last book and are looking forward to the next one.

I think, am I going to risk disappointing them? No. It makes me be more of a perfectionist than I might otherwise be. I'm never oppressed by it. It takes a lot to discourage me. I'm an optimist. My inclination, always, is to say, oh, let's not worry about that. That’ll be okay. Don't worry. With my stepchildren, they soon learned. They came to me and said, "I don't feel good. I think I should go to the doctor." I would say, "You'll feel better in the morning." Of course, they would then go to Barbara and she would say, "I'll take you to the doctor." [laughs] My inclination was always to say, no, it can't be that bad, it can't be that bad. The idea that I've got this responsibility, which I do have, all those readers looking forward to the book, all those people in the publishing houses all over the world in all the different countries, all of those people, all those booksellers who are thinking, great, we've got a Ken Follett to sell this Autumn, that’ll help, all of those people, to let them down would indeed be terrible. What I think is, yes, that would be absolutely terrible, so I must make sure that this is a good story.

Zibby: Wow. What would you have done, do you think, if the books hadn’t taken off? What career might you have had? What was your fallback?

Ken: Before Eye of the Needle was published, for a while I was a sort of jobbing writer. For example, I turned a movie script into a novel for a publisher. It was quite well-paid. I think I got two thousand pounds for turning Capricorn One into a novel. That would pay the bills for three or four months. I knew I could do that and I could do it well. I thought I may have to go back to that having taken my shot and written one best seller and unable to do it anymore. Then I could probably still make a living as a writer, I thought. That was plan B anyway, which fortunately never got tested by reality.

Zibby: I know The Pillars of the Earth became this eight-part miniseries and everything. How involved are you in adapting your work? How much would you like to be doing that in the future?

Ken: I'm not very closely involved. They invite me to the set, which I enjoy. It's wonderful, meet the actors. Of course, Pillars of the Earth, I arrived in Budapest, this lot, and there is this medieval English village with a half-built cathedral in the middle of it and all these guys with hammer and chisel pretending to build a cathedral. It was marvelous. It was absolutely marvelous. I loved it. It was a thrill. It was a real thrill. It is that. It's a thrill. You're also very nervous. I've had some bad shows made out of my books, but not many, mostly good. I think there are good authors and not-so-good authors. There are good filmmakers and not-so-good filmmakers. I've got to trust these people because one thing's for sure, I don't know as much about making a television drama as they do, so I shouldn't try and tell them what to do. I should let them do their best and I should just cross my fingers. I tell stories in words. They tell stories in pictures. It is a different skill. That's been my practice, is to say, great, over to you. I'll come and see how you're doing, but it'll just be a social visit. I won't say, no, you can't do it that way. By and large, that has worked for me.

Zibby: That's great. Are you already at work on your next book? How long do these take to write? This is almost a thousand pages. How long does each book take you?

Ken: Three years is the norm. Actually, The Evening and the Morning was a little bit shorter than that. I spend a year planning, a year on the first draft, and a year on the rewrite. That's my normal timetable. People think it's a long time. It seems a bit short to me. It's a lot of work to get into three years.

Zibby: Are you at the beginning stage of the next one?

Ken: Yes. Well, more past that. I finished The Evening and the Morning about a year ago. I've been working on a new story since then. I don't stop. I'm not ready to talk about the new book yet. That's partly because it may well change. The story I think it is now may be something different in a year's time.

Zibby: Have you ever thought about writing some sort of life advice book? You have such great advice and such a wit about you and all that. Maybe you should do a little advice to graduates or to parents, I don't know, something.

Ken: I don't think that's my talent, I must tell you. [laughs]

Zibby: I think it's a hidden talent. You never know. When you're procrastinating from your main work.

Ken: If the novels ever become unpopular and I can't sell them, then I may think about your advice.

Zibby: If you need a backup plan in the next two decades or something. Thank you. Thank you so much for talking to me on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books" and for sharing more about The Evening and the Morning which, I know, I'm sorry, we barely even talked about, but readers of yours who are huge fans will undoubtedly enjoy just as much as every other, especially because it's the prequel to one of your most popular books ever, The Pillars of the Earth. Thank you. Thanks for all the advice, even if you don't write a book about it. [laughs]

Ken: It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for having me on the podcast. I hope I'll see you again.

Zibby: Sounds great. Thank you, Ken.

Ken: Buh-bye.

Zibby: Buh-bye.