Evy Poumpouras, BECOMING BULLETPROOF

Zibby Owens: Don't get too sad, but today is the last day of my ten days of a July Book Blast. I hope that you've enjoyed all these ten days. If you've missed them, go back and listen to Memoir Monday and Debut Tuesday and Body Blast and all the rest of the episodes that hopefully will have made your July just a little bit better. Today's our last day. It's self-help, inspiration, empowerment Friday. Let's just call it Empowerment Friday. I hope that you feel encouraged and inspired and just awesome after listening to these episodes today.

Evy Poumpouras is the author of Becoming Bulletproof. She is a former Secret Service agent, co-host on Bravo TV’s series Spy Games, and national media contributor who covers national security, law enforcement, and crime. She regularly appears on The Today Show, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, HLN, and GMA. Evy holds an MA in forensic psychology and an MS in journalism from Columbia University. That was a lot of abbreviations. Anyway, enjoy Evy's episode.

Welcome to "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books," Evy. I'm so excited to talk to you.

Evy Poumpouras: Thank you. I'm so excited to be on. Thank you for having me.

Zibby: Becoming Bulletproof is your latest book. You're a former Secret Service agent. You're a total badass. If there was ever a female embodiment of that word, it is you. Can you tell listeners, please, what your book is about and what inspired you to write it?

Evy: I wanted to take everything I learned and put it in the book almost like a life how-to manual for people out there. It was the training and the experience and all these things I got to do over the years, and the education, everything, all of that, I thought, how can I put this in a book to help people in their day-to-day lives? Over the years, constantly, I'm always bombarded with questions. How do I manage this problem? How would you do this? How would you deal with that situation? I thought, you know, people need to know this stuff. The stuff that I used and learned through work, I use in everyday life, in relationships not just in work, but also in my personal relationships with family, with friends, in business, and across the board. It really also is about becoming resilient. That's why I called it Becoming Bulletproof because you're on a constant journey to become better, stronger, more capable, more formidable. It's about having and be able to execute that process.

Zibby: Let's go to the beginning of the book because it opens with the most dramatic scene from 9/11 that you wrote so well. I literally felt like I was there with you, I was coming out having trouble breathing because the dust was in my mouth. It is a graphic and very compelling introduction, if you will, to your life and your bravery and all the rest. Can you just speak for a minute about that moment in your life and the importance it's held for you since then?

Evy: I shared that story because -- I don't want to share the story, per se. I wanted to share it because there was a meaning behind it. It was something that was an intense situation. It's something that happened many years ago, some of which some people weren’t even around for because it's been so long. I wanted to share what I learned from that experience. I wanted the book and every story that I put in it to be a learning lesson for people because it was a learning lesson for me. I learned in that moment where you feel that there is no hope, that you can always find hope. You always have a choice. In that moment, I stayed with some of my colleagues. We stayed to help. We worked out of the US Secret Service offices which were located there and ended up getting caught in the collapse of the tower. Even in that moment where I thought, you know what, this is it, this is my end, I realized that I still had power and I had a choice. Although maybe I couldn't choose whether I died or not, I could choose how I would face my death. I think we don't think about that. We think that something happens to us, we think, that's it. All the choices are out of my hands. There's nowhere to go from here. Everything's out of my control. I remember that moment clearly. I think if I can find hope in that moment, a choice in that moment, a power in that moment, then you can find hope and choice in anything. I've been able to do that from that point forward. No matter how difficult the situation comes -- sometimes they can feel so overwhelming. We think, oh, my gosh, how am I going to get through this? I think of that moment. All of a sudden, a door opens here. A window opens there. You realize, I do have a sense of control. I do have a choice. It may not be the choice I want to make, but I have a choice to change and alter this outcome in some way.

Zibby: Wow. Of course, having that sense of control is really the difference between feeling depressed and hopeless. The more of the locus of control lays with you, the more empowerment and hope and ultimately happiness that you can get out of it, right?

Evy: Yeah. We navigate our own ship. You may end up in a storm, but you can still navigate the ship through that storm to some degree. You still have power. It's about finding power in those powerless moment. Do we surrender to it and we just let everything completely demolish us? Or do we say, okay, I realize this is happening, this is a difficult situation, but then how do I navigate it? Then how do you look at it almost as a challenge? You can look at something as insurmountable or you can look at it as something like, well, this is a pretty cool challenge. How do I do this? I choose the latter because the first one has a negative connotation. It's negative. It's hopeless. The latter says, okay, this is a challenge. It also helps you problem-solve. In the first situation, we get stuck. We get stuck on the problem. We repeat. We repeat. We can't move forward because we can't accept it. In this latter situation, you say, I accept the situation, but now I'm able to move forward.

Zibby: I love that. This whole notion of power is something that I feel like courses through your book and your talk and all the rest. One thing that I found really interesting that you said is, "The person who speaks the least has the power." Can you tell me more about that?

Evy: I learned this when I became an interviewer. I thought that that was the truth for the longest time. I navigate the conversation. I'm in control. What I learned is that that is not true. The person who says the least, that person has the most power. If you and I are speaking -- this is a great example. Granted, it's an interview. You're asking me all these questions. You're doing most of the listening. I'm doing most of the talking. You're going to learn everything about me. At the end of this conversation, I'm going to know very little about you. I'm not going to know that much about you, but you're going to understand me, the way I think, my life journey. Then you can come into the conversation in a more thoughtful way because you're going to know what resonates with me and what doesn't resonate with me. That is the same is any dialogue. Look at it as an interview process, and especially in the beginning or even if you're going in to do a pitch or a business pitch to somebody. If you can have them start the conversation in a meaningful way, then they can guide you and help you figure out where to go rather than being completely in the blind. Less talking means more power because you're gathering intelligence. Then when you do speak, you can speak so in a more impactful way. I also call this verbal economics. We should look at words as currency, if that makes sense. The way you're mindful in the way you spend your money, by mindful in the way you spend your words. They can be impactful or they can lose impact because you're just throwing them out there and not thinking about how you spend them.

Zibby: Now I'm afraid to say anything. [laughter]

Evy: We should speak. We should be comfortable in speaking. What I wanted to introduce is that having thoughtfulness -- the way we do that is slowing down, not just blurting out everything we want to say. We've all been there where we say something, myself included, and then I'm like, I shouldn't have said that. That didn't come out right. How did that have an impact? Our words impact the way our relationships go, whether good or bad. Again, I learned that over trial and error. I learned that over the years of doing hundreds of interviews. That's why I feel like, look, I learned from these mistakes, learn from what I learned. Use the best skills that all the best communicators and interviewers and negotiators that I know use. You don't get to go to Secret Service training. Don't worry about it. You don't need to. Here it is, but it's for your life. It's the how-to for life.

Zibby: Who can't use that? We all could use a guide like that. Another point that I thought was really important that you said was how when communicating a position of authority you should show and not tell it. Can you explain that one a little more too?

Evy: Oh, yeah. Have we not all had that boss or maybe even done it ourselves? I'm the boss, you need to listen to me. I'm the person in charge. I'm the parent. What we don't realize is that when we do that, we lose power. The minute you have to tell somebody you're in charge, do you think they don't know you're in charge? If I'm the parent, do your kids not know you're the parent? The fact that you have to say it shows that you're losing power. The shift is to not tell people, but to show people. I learned this in the interview room because when I started interviewing people -- I didn't want to be an interviewer to begin with. I didn't want to because I didn't think I'd be able to get people to open up, especially people who commit crimes. What I wanted to do is to impact people, but I knew I had to show my authority in some way. One of the senior interrogators told me, "You don't tell people you're in charge. You show people you're in charge." You show them in the way you enter the room. You show them in the way you carry yourself and the way you present yourself, to the way you're dressed, to the way you conduct yourself, to whether or not you show up on time or early or late to a meeting. All those things show people that you're in charge. All those things show people that you are put together. When people see that, that impacts them. That speaks volumes instead of you throwing out the words like, "Hey, I'm in charge. You listen to me, buddy." It doesn't work. It doesn't have that impact.

Zibby: I feel like you were watching my earlier interaction today with my five-year-old son. [laughs] I was literally like, "I'm the mom. You're the kid." You're right. It totally didn't work. The problem is, at least with parenting -- I don't want to divert it to something as seemingly insignificant when you're interrogating terrorists or whatever else. Anyway, but you can't really communicate power by dressing nice or showing up for a meeting at the TV for Paw Patrol or something like that when you're with your kids. It's much harder, I feel like, when you're on the clock 24/7 around these little beings to maintain that allure of constant authority.

Evy: You bring up a good point. There's also ways in which you can do it in the way that you address them. This is a very simple thing. When you want to convey authority, especially for women, drop and deepen your voice. When you're talking to your kid, changing the tone of your voice and the depth of your voice, in that moment when you're trying to convey something serious, it's going to change the way it lands on your child. Think about that. You're shifting. They're going to hear that tone. They're going to hear that change. They're going to think, she's being serious in this moment. It's going to cause them to listen different. It's about the way we move and being fluid and also bringing out the version of ourselves in a specific moment that we want to convey to someone. You don't want to be on all the time. It's very exhausting. It's very difficult. For example, in those moments -- I do this even with my husband. In those moments when I want to convey something, where I want to be like, this isn't the nice Evy you're talking to at the moment, right now I need to lay down law, I'll sit down. I'll lock in eye contact. I'll change my facial features. I'll deepen my voice. Now I'm conveying authority rather than telling you, hey, I'm your wife, you need to listen to me. I don't need to do that. Those are really subtle things that we can do that cause people to pause and listen.

Zibby: I think I might be a little intimated to be your husband. [laughs]

Evy: He's an interrogator as well, so he does the same thing to me.

Zibby: Oh, good. At least it goes both ways, oh, my gosh. What has it been like going from the seriousness of your profession to then translating it to all these different areas now? especially Bravo's Spy Games, which by the way, my kids, that was the coolest thing that you did out of everything. [laughs] Tell me about that and the show and transitioning from everything you're doing to everything else you're doing. It's across the board.

Evy: It is across the board. I have to say it was difficult. Working in government, it's very structured. It's very linear. You do A then B then C. Things work out a certain way. Then also, the type of personalities you deal with, it's just very different. I never had to even advocate for myself because I would always be advocating for someone else, the president, the first lady. When I was working a case, I'm advocating justice for a victim. It's very different. Then you transition in a world where it's the business of you. I was completely lost at first because now I have to speak for myself, something I never had to do before. It's amazing how difficult it can be, how difficult it even was for me to, I don't want to say demand, but to say, this is what I'm worth. This is what my value is. This is how I think this should proceed. I had to really transition. There's also this remarkable lightness, like with Spy Games. I think when you spend your career doing things that are so heavy, so serious, so life or death, so to speak, you welcome the change. You welcome putting some lightness into life. I really did enjoy Spy Games. Even with the contestants, I loved watching the different contestants go through their journeys, especially the ones that stayed on longer. They resonated with me because you see people come in one way and you see them change. It was a competition series, a game series, but were also trying to transform them as people. It was remarkable when you would see that transformation happen. It's almost like when I went through training. I went in one way. In the end, I came out a whole other person.

Zibby: What made you want to go down this path to begin with?

Evy: I'd been in the US Secret Service thirteen years. Initially, it was great. I loved my job. A producer from NBC --

Zibby: -- That's interesting too, but how did you get into wanting to serve as part of the Secret Service to begin with? How did you get to be so selfless that you would be willing to give up your life to protect other people in the name of the country and everything? What was it about you? How did that even start?

Evy: I think it was a process. I can't say when I was a kid, when I grew up, I wanted to be that. I didn't even want to go into law enforcement. Police would pull me over. If anybody didn't like police, it was right here, this person. I was such a brat. I didn't think about that. I think the turning point was, when I was in college, I interned for a congresswoman. I interned with her for about two years for free. Everybody thought I was all out of mind. My friends were like, "What are you doing?" It was one of the most meaningful things I ever did. It was Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy. I began seeing constituents, people in her district, coming in with problems, writing in. I learned that people come in with problems and they ask for your help. I became one of those case workers where I would help people. It was such a meaningful thing to see the impact you could have on someone's life. Some of the cases that would come in were serious. Some of the problems people had were serious, some not so serious. Maybe they were not so serious for me or for you, but for that person, having a really high electric bill that they couldn't afford to pay, it was serious. I think that's where the idea of public service came in.

Then also too, I did grow up in an environment in New York City in the eighties and nineties, so much violence. I grew up in a low-income area. We lived in public housing. We didn't grow up in the best of situations. It definitely was not the worst, but it wasn't the greatest. Being surrounded by fear and negativity and also being victims of crime -- I remember a couple of times when we were, when my family would call the police and they wouldn't do anything. I would be so angry. I'd be like, "We were violated. Don't you guys care?" The law enforcement that I dealt with, they were kind of nonchalant like it was no big deal to them because it was no big deal to them, but my world had been turned upside down. I think all those things collectively over the years, it's just little bit, by little bit, by little bit navigated and pointed me into the way of serving others. That's truly how I ended up in that path. Then when I began doing the work, I realized when you do something, when you help other people, it's so impactful. It actually helps you more than it helps them.

Zibby: I've found that to be true as well. What do make, then, of all the current uproar about police and the movement to defund the police or restructure the whole thing? We don't have to really get into it, but I was just curious your thoughts.

Evy: Look, people are speaking up because there's a reason to speak up. It's not coming out of nowhere. Policing has to evolve. It's a very slow system. It's a very big system. It's reluctant to change. It is. Policing typically has been very much about, even with the way they recruit -- this is something I've been vocal about because we have to evolve. Policing has to evolve. It's always been focused on somebody's physical capability. That's always been the primary thing when you go through training. I've been through four different academies. Can you run? Can you lift? Can you carry someone? Can you fight? Obviously, important things that you need to be able to do because you are enforcing the law. As we know, a lot of people don't go willingly and it creates a problem. At the same time, people are demanding a more fair system, a more unbiased system, a more educated system, a system in where people are communicating.

You have to look at how you hire police. If you're hiring officers, and plenty of police departments do this, with somebody who just has a college degree and maybe a year of work experience -- think about that for a moment. Think about how that's a problem. You're going to give somebody like that, next-to-nothing life experience with just a high school degree, just because they can run faster than somebody else and do pullups better than somebody, you're going to give them a badge and a gun and the ability to impact another person's life by either taking away their freedom or taking away their life. We have to look at who we make police officers. I think that's the crux of it, the quality of the candidates we're bringing in, raising the standards, creating national standards, even polygraph testing. It's a very controversial thing. In the US Secret Service, I was polygraphed multiple times. Then I would polygraph applicants coming in. I cannot tell you how many times people were coming in for a job, a job, and it would end up being a criminal interview in the end or they would confess to having committed certain acts. I'm thinking, you can't be an agent. You can't carry a badge or gun.

We would disqualify them, but get this. Then they would leave. They would go to another law enforcement entity that did not polygraph, that could not corroborate what I just did, and they would get the job. That's the problem. We have to raise our standards and be very thoughtful about how we hire and who we hire. When you have an educated police force, even somebody who has a college degree -- think about that. When you finish high school, you're in your hometown with your friends and the same bubble of people you've been in your whole life. When you go to college, when you're around other people, a diverse group of people, you learn to communicate, a different sense of responsibility is placed upon you, an appreciation of other people. It opens your mind. The more you read, the more you learn, the more you connect with people, now you have a different type of police officer. I really do believe that therein lies the crux of the issue, changing that.

Zibby: I feel like you need to be a main spokesperson for all of this. I know you are outspoken and all the rest. I feel like you need to be on the front page of the newspaper and getting on TV constantly.

Evy: You know what's important? I talk to the law enforcement. It's hard because you get so connected to it because you do it and you're on the barrage. Don't get me wrong, people are brutal. Society is brutal and cruel. I remember when I went into the police department. I started in NYPD. I was there very little. We used to run on the FDR highway here in New York City. The cars go fifty, sixty miles per hour as they're cruising by. I remember people spitting up, aiming to spit on us, flipping us the finger, calling me horrible names. I'm thinking, what did I do to you? I don't even know you. Because I was in uniform, they despised what I represented. I think it goes both ways. What you do is when you spit on that person, you also don't know who they are. You don't know why they're doing what they're doing. The majority of law enforcement, I will tell you, they don't do it for the paycheck. They do it because they want to impact and have a meaningful life and give meaning to other people's lives. Even my students, I tell them -- I teach as an adjunct. When they see sometimes, the injustices, they say, "How do I change this?" I tell them, "Go become a police officer. Go become a prosecutor, a DA. Go become a judge. Change it. Don't sit there and yell and scream and throw things and make the problem worse. Change it. Do something. I think that's where we have to look at that.

Zibby: Gosh, you are so inspiring. I'm ready to change gears here in my mid-forties and become a prosecutor or something. [laughs] Tell me about your experience actually writing this book. What was that like compared to your previous career? How did you find that experience?

Evy: Hard, hard, hard. I envy any other person out there who's like, I love writing, I'm a great author. For me, it was so difficult. One, because I wanted to write a book to help people. That was, at core, the principle of why I wrote the book. I had to fight the other entities. They were like, "More stories about you. More stories about you." I was just like, "This is not my memoir. If I'm writing something to help people, it can't be about me." If I'm going to share a story, I wanted it to have a reason as to why I was sharing that story. Look, that's just my DNA. It's just how I felt when I was writing it. Then at the same time, trying to articulate in a book all these different things that I do, these processes -- I'd been doing them for so long. Even other agents I would see employing some of these same strategies and skills, but they didn't have a name. I would see that we would handle problems a certain way. I'd go to work. Something crazy would be happening in the world, but you'd go to work, everyone would say, "Hey, what's up?" We were never stressed out or bombarded with the drama of the world sometimes even when bad things were happening because we had been able to adapt to stressful environments very easily. We were able to absorb and digest negativity and crises in a thoughtful way.

Then you see the difference with the public. You're thinking, man, I want to take this stuff and give it to the public so that when things are happening you don't feel completely lost. You don't feel like you completely want to fall apart. Over the years I was thinking, what have people come to me with over the years, the problems, the issues? How have I given them advice? Then also, how have I evolved? What has helped me? That part was difficult in trying to figure out what was meaningful and impactful to people. I wrote it as a book to -- I love books. I think books really open the mind and broaden the mind. I'm a big audiobook listener. I love audiobooks. I don't have time to read, so I listen. I was like, how can I help transform people? How can I write a book that people will go back and that will finish? That’s the other thing they told me. Nobody ever finishes nonfiction books. I was thinking, man, I don't want that to be my book. I don't want people to buy it and be like, oh, great, they bought my book. I wanted them to buy it and listen to it and to get an email and say, "Thank you. It changed my life."

Zibby: Your book is already an Audible best seller, so mission accomplished.

Evy: I know. I put so much heart into the audiobook because I love audiobooks. I love it when I hear the author and the person who wrote it talk to me because you want to feel like they're there with you. In truth, that's what I wanted. It came from a place of authenticity. Yes, I'm here with you. Here's my voice. Hear me. You're going through this. It's going to be okay. I know it sucks, but let's figure it out. Here's the steps you can do. I was so happy when I saw that. I was more excited about the audiobook than anything because of how important and valuable audiobooks have been to me.

Zibby: Now I have to go back and listen to the audiobook. I only had the e-manuscript or whatever. Now I'll put that on in the car. Perfect. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

Evy: Just be patient. Be kind to yourself. Don't worry about making it perfect. In the beginning, I just kind of vomited my stuff. I really did. I spent a couple of months just vomiting information. I wasn't worried about how it sounded or the structure of it. I was thinking about the content. Take breaks. If you're just in it the whole time, your brain needs a little bit of a break. I would take breaks from writing. I'd say, I need to step away. I'm in it. I'm spinning my wheels. Let me go do something completely different that's not so cognitive heavy and then go back into it. Those were the key things for me. One more thing, and I do it now because we're all working from home for the most part. Every morning, I would get dressed as if I were going out on the days I would write. I would write from home. I'd even put shoes on. I'd sit down at my desk as if I were going to work. It caused a mental shift for me of, nope, I'm at work now. I'm not at home. That actually helped me be more productive in my writing rather than feel like I'm home and in my pajamas. I got rid of that vibe altogether.

Zibby: Wearing shoes, who knew? I've been doing it all wrong. [laughs]

Evy: I do it now. Every morning, I wake up, I put my shoes on. I get dressed as if I'm going out. It just shifts the mindset because you're like, no, I'm at work. When we're at home, we get distracted. We're home. We're the home version of ourselves. It's harder to have self-discipline in that way.

Zibby: You're absolutely right. Wow. Evy, thank you so much. This has been just so eye-opening in so many ways. Thank you. Your book was amazing. I can't wait to listen to the audiobook version now. The advice was invaluable. I just have so much respect for you and what you've done. What a role model of a woman you are and that I can go tell my kids all the things that you've done and you’ve been able to accomplish. It's just really, really awesome. I'm really glad I got to know you a little bit today.

Evy: Thank you. I so appreciate the time and the conversation. Definitely, when you're talking to them, just remember authority. Drop the voice. Lock in the eye contact. Go in. You're going to see. I'd be curious. You're going to see a shift in they way they receive you.

Zibby: Totally. I will channel you as I try to get them to bed. [laughs]

Evy: Absolutely.

Zibby: Thanks so much.

Evy: Thank you. Be well. Stay safe. Buh-bye.

Zibby: You too. Thank you. Buh-bye.

So that's it. That's the last day of the July Book Blast. That's the last of the Empowerment Friday episodes. Go back. Listen to the last ten days. There are so many amazing episodes. I really hope you've stuck with me and listened and sampled and gotten inspired to read more and gotten some great life tips along the way and above all, felt connected through the power of storytelling. Thanks for listening.

Tiler Peck, KATARINA BALLERINA

Zibby Owens: Welcome to Inside and Out, the body edition of the July Book Blast. This is Thursday's Body Blast. Let's call it that, the Body Blast. I'm calling it that because one author is a ballerina, one is a yoga teacher, and one investigates DNA. That's why. I hope you'll enjoy these varied takes on the human body.

Tiler Peck is the coauthor of Katarina Ballerina. She is an international ballerina herself and has been a principal dancer with the New York City Ballet since 2009. She has been seen on Broadway in On the Town and The Music Man and originated the role of Marie in the Kennedy Center’s production of Little Dancer alongside Kyle Harris, who's the coauthor. Ms. Peck performed for President Obama at the 2012 and 2014 Kennedy Center Honors. Ms. Peck has guested on Dancing with the Stars twice and appeared on Julie Andrews’s Netflix series, Julie’s Greenroom. She's the recipient of the 2013 Princess Grace Statue Award and was named one of Forbes' 30 Under 30 in Hollywood/Entertainment. Most recently, she was the first woman to curate three performances titled Ballet Now at the Los Angeles Music Center and is the subject of a documentary directed by Steven Cantor and produced by Elisabeth Moss for Hulu. She lives in New York City with her dog, Cali.

Welcome, Tiler. Thanks so much for coming on my show.

Tiler Peck: Thank you for having me.

Zibby: This is such a treat, oh, my gosh. You're a world-famous ballerina. It's amazing. The best part, though, are your Instagram classes. I want to hear about your book, Katarina Ballerina, but your Instagram during quarantine and starting classes and Josh Groban popping by, tell me about all of that.

Tiler: It's really become something so incredible. I started it out just because I need to continue staying in shape to stay in New York City Ballet shape. I need to do class every single day. When the quarantine hit and I thought, okay, I need to give myself class, I thought, I bet there are so many people stuck at home going crazy with nothing to do. So many of their normal classes are probably canceled. I'd never done an Instagram Live. I thought, I think this is how you do it. I'll just push the button. I'll see it how goes. Maybe there will be like five people dancing with me. Then I didn't know what the numbers meant, honestly. I didn't know what it meant. Then when somebody said, "There was 1,500 people dancing with you today," I thought, how incredible. Then I started getting messages from all around the world, people in Iran, South Africa, Australia, the UK, everybody. That is so special to me. We're really going through this tough time with COVID and then now the riots and everything. If I can keep people connected in dance and bringing together different forms and different guests to help spread their joy -- Josh Groban was one of my favorite guests who popped on because he was just so fun, so funny. Who knew? I had no idea. Such a great sense of humor. How special for people in their homes to get to dance to Josh Groban singing. That doesn't happen very often. I'm just trying to bring joy to people's lives. It's been really, really incredible for me too.

Zibby: That's so awesome. Are you going to keep it going? Do you have a plan, or just see how it goes?

Tiler: I know. Everybody keeps asking me that. Obviously, I won't be able to do it at the time when I normally do it because I'll be giving -- hopefully, when we get back to New York City Ballet, I'll be in my own class. I am going to have figure out some sort of way to keep it going because I would feel so bad like I was leaving all of these people behind. I know they count on it. I don't know. I definitely won't give it up. It'll be in a different form. Turn Out with Tiler will be in some other form.

Zibby: It's so neat. It's really great you provide that service. I hadn’t done Instagram Live either until the quarantine. I was like, um, what do I press? It's great. It's such a nice way to be able to unite people around things they're interested in. I do book stuff in a much smaller scale than you. Still, it's so nice to be able to connect this way and bring stories like yours.

Tiler: Actually, Kyle and I, who's my coauthor for Katarina Ballerina, we've done an Instagram Live. We started a Saturday Stories where we start at the beginning of the book. We've only done two so far. We're just reading it through and letting anybody who wants to ask us questions pop in. We do a little Q&A. It's been really fun to get to know the readers because we didn't get to have our book signing tour that we were planning on. This is a way for us to still get to hear from our readers.

Zibby: Tell me about Katarina Ballerina, which I read. I read half of it out loud to my daughter who's almost seven. What inspired you to write the book? How did you team up with Kyle Harris? Tell me the whole story.

Tiler: Kyle Harris and I met when we were doing a new Broadway musical. We were doing it in DC in 2014, actually. It was called Little Dancer. He plays my opposite. He plays my boyfriend in the show. We became really great friends. We're completely different. He knows nothing about dance. He actually grew up playing soccer and then moved into musical theater. He's a really great actor and has a great voice. We were in this musical together. He was in awe of the ballet world because that's what the musical was. It was called Little Dancer. Now it’s called Marie. It's about Edgar Degas' sculpture, the Little Dancer. I play her. Here he was surrounded in this world of ballet which he knew nothing about. He wrote a little poem. The poem was Katarina Ballerina. It was just a little one-page poem. He showed it to me. I was like, "Kyle, this is really good. I think you actually have something here."

It wasn't until a few years later, 2017 I believe, when I said, "You know what Kyle? Let's really try and make something happen with that poem. I don't know what it is, but let's just get in a room and see what we can do." We thought, okay, we'll make a children's picture book. When we went to Simon & Schuster, we thought, here's the poem. We think this could be a really cute children's picture book. They said, "We love it, but we want you to make a chapter book because we think that this has more of a story and a message than just a picture book. Would you want to go back and start trying to write a chapter book?" We were like, that seems very daunting, but we'll try. We went back. We started writing together. I always really enjoyed writing. Kyle's really great. The two of us together, it was just such a great partnership. It made for a really fun and interesting story because we were able to incorporate ourselves a little bit in her. He has this crazy curly hair. He's the one who's a little pigeon-toed. We thought, why don't we put those characteristics into Katerina? She isn't the perfect dancer. She doesn't have what you think the perfect ballerina looks like, whatever that may be. She wanted slicked-back hair and perfect turnout.

We wanted Katerina not to have those things, but to have that thing that you can't teach, which is that light that makes people want to watch you dance. That is the most important thing, I think, in a dancer. You can work on technique, but it's really hard to teach somebody to have that joy. That has to come from within. That's really the message. It's owning your own unique gifts. What she thinks are what's going to hold her back is really what ends up making her stand out. It's not comparing yourself to the next student. If I were to compare myself to anybody in the New York City Ballet, I'd probably be like, I think maybe I shouldn't dance. Somebody always has something better than you. You may have something better than them. It's just, everybody's different. I really think that's an important message for kids, but also just anybody to be reminded of that.

Zibby: It's so true. Sometimes the things you wish weren’t there are the things that make you who you are. That's where all the great stuff comes from at the end of it. It's much harder to feel that way especially at Katerina's age and when you're struggling to fit in or you just want to look like everybody else in the dance class or all the rest. It's a very important message at any age.

Tiler: I know it was good to remind myself. With social media, you can go down that rabbit hole of looking at -- for me, sometimes I'll just want to watch ballet videos. Sometimes when I watch those beautiful Russian dancers who have extension, I think, oh, my goodness, why do I even dance? [laughs] I have what Katerina has where I just love to dance. I think that's what people, I hope, see when they watch me dance. I just try to focus on that. I might not be able to get my leg above my head or whatever, but I can dance. It was good for me to remind myself.

Zibby: It's so true. Watching someone do what they love, it's almost this contagious effect. You feel their joy. You feel you're participating in it in some way. Also, as an audience member, hardly anybody can tell the difference. Probably, you as a professional dancer can tell the difference between you and some Russian dancer, but nobody else would be able to tell the fraction of an inch of difference that you were worried about.

Tiler: As ballerinas, perfectionism doesn't really exist, but we are as close to it as possible. I feel like I'm my hardest critic. If one little finger is out of place, I'm like, gosh, that could've been better. It's true. We have to always remind ourselves.

Zibby: This is sort of off topic, but just wondering. There's so much a stereotype of dancers, that it comes with, sometimes, body image issues because you're using your body all the time. You hear about a lot of people have maladaptive eating habits and all the rest. They're so worried about their bodies and everything. How do you have such -- well, I'm assuming. I shouldn't assume. What is your relationship with your body like? How do you try to maintain the positive despite the environment that can be negative?

Tiler: I think that attributes to a few things. One was the way I was brought up. I have a really supportive family. If had some sort of eating thing, I know my mom would pull me out of dance right away. It was always just, you have to fuel your body to be strong. I never really ever had to think about that because that was just what was engrained in me. I think a lot of us are lucky. My mom was a dancer. My father was a college football coach. I did have the athletic genes, I feel like. People are really interested when they see how much I actually do eat. They're like, "Wait, you're going to eat that?" I'm like, "Yeah, are you?" at dinners with the dessert and stuff. That's just how I've always been. My favorite food is pasta, actually. Before every single performance, the night before I always have pasta. I think it's a mental thing. At the same time, I don't think you would really think a ballerina loves pasta or salad dressing or eats dessert. That's always been me. I can't speak for all ballerinas, but I've always felt like I had a really good head on my shoulders. I think that that comes from my parents who just brought me up that way.

Zibby: Gosh, the pressure on the parents to make sure to raise their kids like you. [laughs]

Tiler: It's [indiscernible] because you see so many injuries in dance. I've actually had some, but very little for the amount I've danced and the demand that is put on my body. I really think that that comes from correct diet and taking care of yourself. You have to be really disciplined, not only in class, but with recovery and fueling the body. I think that if you're not constantly making sure that you have snacks with you throughout the day or that you're hydrating, that's when injuries, I think, happen more often than others.

Zibby: Interesting. You are a ballerina still with the New York City Ballet. You have performed on Broadway, also in Kennedy Center. You've written this book. You're still so young. What do you want to do with the rest -- what's your big plan? Do you have a big plan of what's coming next for you? I feel like the sky is the limit, is basically what I'm trying to say with what you could do with your talent and magnetism and all the rest. I'm just wondering, do you have a pie-in-the-sky dream of what's to come for the rest of your life or even just the next couple years?

Tiler: What I've really loved during these classes is that people have gotten to really get to know me. I think that ballerinas can sometimes be put on this, I always like to say this untouchable pedestal where they're looked to be as, oh, they're perfect and their life is just perfect. That's just not me. I really feel like with these classes people have gotten -- they’ve really seen me as how I am, in my parent's kitchen doing class. I mess up. I say, you guys, sorry, I'm totally not perfect, so just bear with me. I'm sorry I messed up that step. I taught you one thing and then I did the other. [laughs] That's what I really think is important for ballet to be more accessible to people. I don't know if there's a talk show that would happen like how I've been bringing in guests. Maybe that could become something. I've always wanted to direct a company later on down the road. Maybe that will be a dream of mine that could come true. I don't really know. I'm just having fun at the moment.

Zibby: I don't know why I ask these questions that make people feel uncomfortable sometimes. I don't really need a real answer. I just think it's fun to dream. I like to hear what other people's dreams are in part as well. No pressure to actually go do any of that. I think you should write a memoir. Have you thought about that?

Tiler: I have thought about writing another book about my injury because it was really a very traumatic one where I was told that I would never dance again.

Zibby: What happened?

Tiler: I had a herniated disk, a very severe one in my neck. It was so severe that it was pushing on my spinal cord. I was told, "You'll never dance again. You have to get surgery right away." Long story short, I just feel like there's a lot of people that go through what I went through, which was maybe not feeling like the doctors understood. They didn't understand my profession. They'd always say, "You're a gymnast," or yes, a professional athlete, but they would relate me to a football player. Ballet, you have to use your neck. You have to use your [indiscernible]. Where they were saying, "We can just fix it and we'll fuse something together," I was like, "No, I'll never be able to move my neck the same way ever again. I need to do that." It made me grow really strong as a person. I just feel like there's so many things that I would love to share with people so that they know. It's a really lonely road when you're injured. You feel like nobody understands, nobody's listening.

I would just love to share what I learned because maybe that could help other people. I think the most important lesson was that nobody knows your body better than you. You can use all of the medical knowledge because obviously they know more about the medical field, but they're not inside your body. I think that there's a point where you really have to listen to that voice inside. My voice kept saying, I understand this is really serious, but I don't want to get surgery until that's the last thing that I have to do. I just need to sit and wait and give myself the opportunity to heal. Then if it doesn't, then I'll get the surgery. I felt the pressure. I just want people to know, don't do anything out of pressure or fear. Do it when you're ready. I didn't get it, and I came back. I just did full-length Swan Lake.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. So your body just healed on its own? Were you doing physical therapy, or it just healed?

Tiler: I definitely was doing physical therapy. I did a lot of energy healing, which sounds a little crazy, but it really helped me. I did all these natural things, and I came back dancing.

Zibby: That's amazing. Energy things like Reiki?

Tiler: I don't really know. He's just an energy healer. It was forty-five minutes of talking and then forty-five minutes of energy bodywork. We'd do something different every time, but I saw him once a week. I still do because I believe in it so much.

Zibby: I just love hearing stories like that. It is so inspiring. It is so important. It's just amazing how quick other people can be to say -- it's like they want to do the surgery sometimes. I don't mean to disparage any surgeons, but that's what they do. If you go to a surgeon and you show them a problem, then they give you the surgical solution.

Tiler: Yeah, that's how they know how to fix it. I'm sure they would fix it just fine. I just didn't want to do that until I was ready. It was hard because I kept hearing one thing, but I kept thinking I have to just stick with what I believe. I did. I'm so glad I did.

Zibby: How long did the recovery process take you?

Tiler: I was out from March or April, I can't remember, until my first show back was the weekend after Thanksgiving. I was out until November. It was a lot of months of absolutely nothing. I couldn't move my head. It was really crazy, but I stuck with it.

Zibby: How did you deal with that emotionally?

Tiler: It was so hard. I'm used to dancing every day of my life. When that's taken away, oh, my gosh, you have to focus on all the other stuff that you love, but you don't feel like you're complete. It was really hard, but I feel like I grew up a lot. Weirdly, I think it was this blessing in a disguise kind of thing.

Zibby: That's a nice attitude about it. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but at least you got the lessons out that can inform the rest of what's to come. Sorry, go ahead. What were you going to say?

Tiler: I was just going to say it let me have time to focus on Katerina. We were really able to work on that. With my leotard line, I was able to focus on that. A lot of things I don't normally have time for, I was able to use that time to keep my brain creative and working while I couldn't be physical.

Zibby: What are the plans -- I know it's volume one, Katerina. Your first book is titled volume one. Do you have a number in mind for how many? Have you written the next installment yet? What's the thinking behind that?

Tiler: We're working on book two cover right now. They have the outline. We've just seen the initial book two cover. I'm not allowed to say who the character is, but Katerina will be -- you'll start meeting some of her friends. It's kind of the same story about how dance is this universal language that ties a lot of people together from around the world. Simon & Schuster signed us for two, but we gave them an outline of ten books. We're hoping to have Katerina continue on.

Zibby: Good for you. That's awesome. I love it. Really great. Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?

Tiler: I would say just try it. I, like you, also agree that you kind of have to put the dreams out, put them out into the universe to even know if they can happen. For so long, I never would've dreamt of being an author, but I know I have a lot of things to share. I think the first step is just getting past being scared to even try. That was why it took us from 2014 to '17 to be like, okay, let's just go. They could say no, or they could say yes. They loved the idea. I would say if you want to do it, you should really just try for it.

Zibby: If you ever find yourself with tons more time with nothing to do, which it sounds like that's not the type of person that you are by nature so you're probably not going to, but I have a thirteen-year-old daughter and I feel like you would be great at writing a book for that age group also. Just to put my two cents in here, the injury memoir is super important. I think that's important to get out there. I also think just the way you inhabit your body and using it for strength and good and art and joy is a message for that I feel like teen girls could really, really benefit from and that there's not enough of that. In your spare time, maybe just whip up one of those manuscripts too. [laughs]

Tiler: Okay. It's funny. The ballet is off now. We don't know when we will back, which is very sad, but I've actually been really busy because these classes keep me so busy preparing. We joke that this house has become -- my mom is the production assistant. My dad is craft services. [Indiscernible/laughter] with a funny title. I'm also the booker. I just reach out to people. I say, "I've been doing these free classes. Would you want to pop on?" Everybody has said yes. I really didn't expect for so many people to be so excited by it. I think everybody wants to help bring joy right now and stay connected. This is one little way to do that.

Zibby: It's great. Keep doing what you're doing. Just add these to the list if you're looking for new ideas. [laughs] Thanks, Tiler. Thanks so much for talking to me and sharing your story. It's really inspiring and awesome.

Tiler: Thank you. It was nice meeting you.

Zibby: You too. Take care. Buh-bye.

Tiler: Bye.

Zibby: Thanks for listening to Body Blast Thursday, one of the last days of my July Book Blast. I hope you've enjoyed hearing from a ballerina or a DNA specialist or a yoga aficionado.

Amy Poeppel, MUSICAL CHAIRS

Zibby Owens: Amy Poeppel grew up in Dallas, Texas. She graduated from Wellesley College and worked as an actress in the Boston area appearing in a corporate industrial for Polaroid, a commercial for Brooks Pharmacy -- oh, gosh, I remember Brooks Pharmacy -- and a truly terrible episode of America’s Most Wanted, along with other TV spots and several plays. While in Boston, she got her MA in teaching from Simmons College. She married a neuroscientist at NYU. For the past thirty years, they've lived in many cities all over the world from San Francisco to Berlin and had three sons. Amy taught high school English in the Washington, DC suburbs, and after moving to New York, worked as an assistant director of admissions at an independent school where she had the experience of meeting and getting to know hundreds of applicant families. She attended sessions at the Actors Studio Playwrights/Directors Unit and wrote the theatrical version of Small Admissions, which is one of her novels, which was performed there as a staged reading in 2011. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Rumpus, Working Mother, Points In Case, The Belladonna, and Literary Mama. Her novels include Small Admissions, Lime-light, and Musical Chairs.

Welcome, Amy. Thanks so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Amy Poeppel: I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Zibby.

Zibby: Congratulations on your latest novel, Musical Chairs. So exciting. Can you please tell listeners what this book is about?

Amy: Absolutely. I actually just received the hardcover.

Zibby: Oh, look at it.

Amy: They're just so pretty. That's always exciting, I have to say, even three books in. That is such a thrill when your books arrive. This is a book about a woman who is spending the summer at her ramshackle country house in Connecticut. She's in a piano trio, a classical piano trio, with her very best friend in the world who is a man named Will. They’ve hired a new person to be the violinist in their trio. All they have to do is survive the summer. They're going to have a new, fresh start in the fall. Bridget goes out to her house in hopes of spending a very romantic three months with the new boyfriend that she has. It's getting kind of serious. He breaks up with her over email, partly on the advice of his ex-wife who thinks that maybe they should just take things a little bit more slowly. That's just a disappointing way for Bridget to start her summer. From there, her adult kids move back him. Her ninety-year-old father announces he's getting married. It's just a summer of everybody having to rethink and reinvent themselves and figure out how they're going to move forward under changed circumstances.

Zibby: I didn't really like Sterling from the beginning, though, I have to say. I was kind of not upset when they broke up. [laughs] You introduce him as sending a, "Read my email right away." I didn't think he really cared enough when she was accidentally electrocuted right at the beginning when she first went out to her house. I don't know. I feel like things happen for a reason even in fiction.

Amy: Probably most of us will feel like that was a good riddance situation. Even when you're in those situations, it's hard to see it sometimes for yourself. I've had a lot of friends and family and serious relationships, and in the moment, it just seems like the worst thing that could possibly happen. Then you rethink. Yeah, I think sometimes you come out better for it. I think in Bridget's case, you're absolutely right. I agree.

Zibby: It doesn't make it easier for Bridget, of course. She doesn't have the luxury of the distance from us reading about her or even of her character friends in the novel who can maybe see it for what it is. That's one of many things that she goes through this summer. I love, by the way, how you structured the book, how you had it over a course of a summer with the prelude, and then June, July, August, and a coda in September. That's just so perfect. I love when there are clever structures to books that echo the content, so check plus on that. [laughs]

Amy: There was one other little structural element that I don't think readers would pick up on, necessarily. It was just something that was important to me in my own brain to work it out. It's a trio. Every series starts with Bridget. You get a chapter from Bridget. You get a chapter from Will. Then there's the empty chair. That third chapter is filled by Gavin, who is their first-ever violinist, once in June, once in July, and once in August. Every other third chapter, you get a surprise voice. For me in my head, it was kind of representing Bridget and Will as the two stable anchors in this trio. That third seat always is rotating. I wanted to mirror that in the structure of the book. It's not something anyone would necessarily see when they were reading, but it was really helpful for me in writing it to have that blank third chapter.

Zibby: See, I thought I was analyzing it, and I missed it. I'm sorry. [laughs]

Amy: That overarching structure was exactly what I wanted. I wanted the prelude. I wanted the coda. I wanted the three months in between. Then as a little miniature structure, I put the every three chapters structure in on top of all of that. No, you got it completely.

Zibby: What is the role of music in your life? You obviously know a ton about it. Did you research it for this book? Are you a musician? How did you learn so much about it?

Amy: Zibby, I cannot read music. I don't understand music. I can't carry a tune, to be honest. I'm a huge appreciator of music. Somehow, I raised three children who are very musical. Two of them so far are sort of following a career in music. I got a lot of help from them. My youngest son is a classical pianist. He's studying musicology and composition in college. He helped me so much. Every time I would have an idea and I'd sort of feel like I needed to be listening to something or I needed to be rehearing something, I would research, go to my son, get somebody to help me. It was a really fun world to dive into, but it was also nerve-wracking because I wanted to make sure that I got things right. In an early draft -- I think this happens to a lot of writers. In an early draft, I sort of went too far and it was just so infused with music that my publisher and my editor said, "That's great. Now let's just pull back a little bit for readers who are not classically trained musicians like me." I feel like there's enough of it in there now to really put you in that world. If you don't know anything about classical music, that is not hinderance to understanding or reading the book. I would say, though, that there are some nice references to pieces of music that if you have your Spotify nearby while you're reading, it might be fun to plug in some of those titles and composers and take a listen. The stuff that I chose to put in there, the pieces that I chose, were selected carefully. They're beautiful.

Zibby: Spotify now has playlists you can make. You can always just make a playlist.

Amy: I know. I think it's actually a really good idea. I think I'm going to sit down and go back through the book and find every piece of music that I referred to and make a playlist. Thank you, Zibby. That was such a [audio cuts outs] idea.

Zibby: No problem. I love how you had to interview, essentially, your own children to get the research done for this book. It's actually a genius way to bond with your kids. I'm writing a book about something that I know interests you more than anything, so you're the one who's going to have to help me. That must have made them feel so great. Did it bond you guys in the process? I would think that it did in a way that you couldn't necessarily get at in another way.

Amy: Absolutely. It's really amazing that you spend so much of your life teaching your children how to do things, tie their shoes, use a spoon, manners, all the things that we try to teach our kids. It is so much fun. The first time this happened to me was -- I lived in Berlin for two years. When we got there, my kids didn't speak German at all. I spoke really terrible German, really, really. I can massacre that language like nobody. When we got there, knowing that my kids -- they went into school. They went into German-speaking school. They really struggled. I was helping and teaching, and helping and teaching, and helping with their homework. Then all of a sudden, that flipped on its head. Their German was so much better than mine, and I was constantly asking them for help. We would go into a store. I would say, "Can you help me ask this saleswoman this question?" They were suddenly the experts and able to help me. I just remember thinking, that's what you want as a mom. You want to see your kids get even better, like way better, than you at the things that they excel at and have interest in.

That was a lot of fun, especially with my youngest, Luke. He's the one who's really the most classically trained. Saying to him, "You are the expert here. I am not. I need your help," he was very generous with his time, really slowed things down for me. He would read my drafts and he would explain, "That is not what a rehearsal process is like. That is not the way a musician would ask that question." He would even say to me, "That sounds like a non-musician trying to talk about music." I would be like, "Help me. Help me. Help me get that so that it sounds right," especially in dialogue because dialogue is really important to me. I finally asked my kids for their help again. We just filmed a book trailer. I'm in Connecticut right now in a house that is somewhat dilapidated, we'll say. I needed help. It was an all-hands-on-deck kind of project. The whole family came together. We filmed this book trailer. It should be out, I hope, in about a week.

Zibby: That’s exciting.

Amy: The last hang-up, the last holdup of getting this book trailer out in the world is the music. There's certain places where it needs to get louder and it needs to get softer. My oldest child is a sound engineer. He's twenty-six and works in music studios all over New York City. He's got the file right now. He's doing all of the adjustments to make sure that the sound is right and that the music that's in the background is right. I am so lucky I have these experts right in my house.

Zibby: Totally. You could easily start a podcast, you know. You could just have your son help you with the intro/outro music. You could do free production. Maybe I'll call them. [laughs]

Amy: He's really good. He was hearing in the background music in the book trailer -- he kept saying, "Do you hear that hum?" I was like, "I don't hear a hum." He's like, "Just listen." I would listen. It's my old lady ears. I was like, "I don't hear a hum." He's like, "I have to take that out. That sounds terrible." [laughs] I'm happy to have him.

Zibby: That's awesome. I love this part in the book, speaking of adult children. Bridget is the protagonist of this book. You said, "Bridget did not want to get high with her children. She never had, never would. Nevertheless, her feelings were hurt that they hadn’t even invited her to join them." Then they asked somebody else. You said when they asked Jackie, "Bridget would've said no anyway, but they could've at least included her just to be nice. When they came back to the porch talking loudly and laughing uncontrollably, she left them out there and went into the kitchen where all three dogs who were soggy from having wadded into the pond twice were underfoot and pacing in search of dropped food. She’d lost control of the evening." [laughs] Has that ever happened? That's such a funny -- my kids aren't that old, so I haven't thought about what happens when your kids start doing things like that or that you would feel left out or anything like that. Tell me about that scene.

Amy: I think there are times when your kids are really little and you think that there are things that could never happen or would never happen. Speaking of life imitating art, I came out here and of course when quarantine hit, all three of my adult children moved back home. This was long after I had written the book. The book was submitted ages ago. Here I am for three months now, I've had all three of my kids, twenty, twenty-three, and twenty-six -- the twins in the book are twenty-six. They’ve all moved back home. On two levels, it's funny to me. One, it's just a strange thing that I never thought would happen again. I just didn't think I would ever have a situation where there would be this extended period of time where my kids would be living here. They both regress sometimes to sort of what life was like when they were younger. Then at other times, they're so grown up and so mature and I don't have to take care of them at all. That's just been funny. Then the fact that it's exactly the situation that happens in the book. It's been really funny.

Do my kids engage in behaviors that I sometimes don't approve of? Yes, they do. They probably would invite me. I'm just way too anxious a person for that to be my drug of choice. Yes, these things happen. These things definitely happen. I wrote a piece that's on a comedy site called The Belladonna, which is hilarious if nobody's ever looked at it. The Belladonna is really a great for-women humor site online. I wrote a piece, I can't quite remember what the number was, but it was "Your Growing Child." It was sort of like What to Expect When You're Expecting, but it was the 209th trimester and beyond. It was just a humor piece about what to expect when your kids are eighteen and up. I had a scene in there where your little tike might have Tinder date sleepovers. What do you do when you walk in and there's a man in boxers in your kitchen making pancakes? [laughter] I wrote that just for fun. Then somehow being here with these three very grown boys/men, it's been really enlightening and fun.

Zibby: You have another character in the book. I just wanted to read this quote. You said, "One of Isabelle's biggest flaws she’d be willing to admit was that she was convinced she could straighten out everyone else's life while her own was, to the objective observer, a shit show." That just spoke to me because I can so relate to always wanting to have the answer when I don't necessarily have the answer myself. Is that something that you tend to do as well, or was this just you've seen this so many times from other people?

Amy: I think we've all done that. Other people's problems, you have some distance. That distance gives you clarity. It can sometimes be so easy to look at somebody else's problems and just be like -- I always joke with my husband because he sometimes says, "You know what you should do?" I said, "You should have a podcast called You Know What You Should Do?" [laughs] I think we all could because I think we all feel like we have this sense of, I know what you should do. When it comes to your own situation, it's just always so much more complicated to look at your own problems and sort through what to do. That's why we have friends, though. That's why we run our problems past other people because they can so often give us a little bit of insight that we somehow miss ourselves because we're too close to the problem. It's the same with writing. The reason that you get beta-readers and people is because you get so close to your own material and your own circumstances and your own situation and issues that you just can't see what's really happening anymore, so you give it to somebody else, let them take a look at it. Then they say, "You know what you should do?"

Zibby: I say that all the time, by the way. I say that in probably half the podcasts. This is a great idea. You should do this. Like the playlist, I just said that. It's so obnoxious of me, really. I don't know what I should do. [laughs] It's the same thing.

Amy: I think we all appreciate it. Especially when it's friends and experts and people who really know what they're talking about, who doesn't want to hear a fresh perspective on your own situation? I think it's helpful.

Zibby: Sometimes when I have a problem, I usually write when I'm really upset about something, not for anybody, just to sort out my own feelings. I often will say, pretend that this is a friend's problem. What would you say to the friend? I'm so much more lenient on my friends than on myself. I can see it. But when it's me, it's so different.

Amy: We're so much harder on ourselves. I think that's absolutely true. I actually think "You Know What You Should Do?" would be a great title for a podcast. I think it would be so perfect. In Isabelle's case, she has that sense that she always knows what somebody else should do. Her life, really, when you lay it out on paper at that stage of the book, it does not look great. She is really in turmoil. You do find out toward the end of the book, what was the origin of all of this. I also wanted to tap into a little bit of humor for moms. When our older kids get really proud of ourselves for something that they’ve done that they think is very empowering and very wonderful, we look at it as the mom and we're sort of like, are you sure that was the right thing to do? Are you positive? In this case -- this isn't a spoiler because it happens quite early on. Isabelle has quit a job that was a very good job. You know how we all feel about good jobs, especially these days. She just felt she wasn't quite living her best life. She just quits, burns bridges, just walks out, and then says to her mother, "I'm so proud of myself right now." You don't want to say to your kid, "Are you sure you should be proud?"

We're trying to instill confidence, but I think we may have taken that to such a big degree that we somehow have told our kids that they should be proud of almost any step that they take. That can be troubling. I do think even in Isabelle's case, by the time you get to the end of the book, you feel she's probably done the right thing because life is short. We have to put ourselves in, if we can, and this is not always the case, but if we can -- we don't always ask our kids to think, what do you want to wear to work every day? Do you want to be suited up when you go to work, or do you want to have a more casual lifestyle? This is a ridiculous conversation to be having in this day and age where jobs are just so hard to come by. When I was writing the drafts of this book, we were in a slightly different era. I felt like for Bridget, she could look at that and think, you just walked out of a good job, what were you thinking? Isabelle would think, oh, something else will come along. That's a very privileged -- Jackie says that, that they are very privileged kids and that that seeps out of lots of conversation. She sees it.

Zibby: Tell me a little more about your writing process. How long did it take to write Musical Chairs? Where did you write it? Did you write it in the house that you're in now? I know we're on Skype in this Connecticut, in need of fixing up -- although, it looks perfectly beautiful to me from what I can see.

Amy: This is a well-curated background. [Distorted audio], you'd be like, oh. I did write a lot of the book here. I'm actually just starting Susie Schnall's book, We Came Here to Shine. I was just listening to her speak about her writing process. I know we're not comparing ourselves, but it really makes me want to be Susie Schnall and Fiona Davis who writes such beautiful historical fiction.

Zibby: They were both on my podcast too, so we can listen.

Amy: For anyone who doesn't know, they are both planners. They plan, plan, plan. It's not shocking to people who know me and my personality that I am not a planner. I am not a planner. I go into these books with situations in my head and people in my head. Then it takes me a really long time to figure out who these people are. I know they say we start with drafts and then we throw them out and have to rewrite them as we get to know our characters. That's, of course, true. I do wish I could be a little bit more like them and map things out a bit more from the get-go. I did not do that with Musical Chairs at all. I threw out about fifty thousand words of Musical Chairs in the process of writing it. That's, for people who don't know, easily half a book. That was actually in one of the major rounds, so it was probably more like seventy-five thousand words if you look at the entire course of writing the book.

I just think that's really inefficient. I think that writing those scenes that I throw out maybe teaches me something about writing. Maybe it's not a waste of time, but it is inefficient. I'm working on a fourth book right now. I have tried to do my version of an outline. It's just rough, but I've sort of given myself a little bit of a shape that I'm trying to follow. We will talk again in a year, let you know if it worked for me. I don't know how much of this is personality driven, how much of this is just your work style, your writing style. I just know that for me with my first three books, I really figured it all out as I went along. That's joyful sometimes. It's so much fun sometimes. It's also painful and perhaps really inefficient at times. There are good sides and bad sides. I am going to give the Fiona Davis, Jamie Brenner, Susie Schnall outline the old college try this time around. I'm just going to see what happens. I'll let you know.

Zibby: Keep us posted.

Amy: To avoid throwing out half a book again, I would like to do that. I just don't know if it's possible for me.

Zibby: It's an art, not a science. You'll just play with it and see, experiment.

Amy: I think in fact, it's a great thing to listen other writers, hear how they do things, see if you can't pick up on some of their skills and habits and incorporate them into your own process. I'm definitely up for trying to do that. If anyone's too rigid and too structured, I would say try being a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pantser for a little while because it can be really fun. I think it was Susie who also said that she writes out diary entry type things from her characters' point of view. I sort of feel that I do that as well. I like to really understand who that person is before I just start. I think I do a lot more work on the character side and less work on the plot side. That is fun, but it can get me into trouble.

Zibby: That was all great advice. Do you have any advice to aspiring authors in addition to all of that good stuff?

Amy: I would say just keep at it. Keep trying. Don't be afraid to write something terrible and throw it out. I very much believe in the Anne Lamott advice of just write a terrible first draft. You can't edit until you have something on the page. Don't be afraid. No one's going to see it. Don't worry about it. Just write a first chapter. Let it be awful. It might end up being the tenth chapter. It might end up being in the trash bin. You don't know. You can't move to the next step until you get that lousy first draft written and finished. Then the second thing, the other piece of advice that I would give, it's sort of two things combined. Develop a thick skin or a little bit of a wall between you and the criticism because there's going to be a lot of it. There's going to be a lot of rejection. Figure out, who do you trust? Whose eyes and sensibility do you really trust? Put yourself in that person's hands, whether it's a beta-reader -- I would not say a family member or best friend. They're going to be too nice to you. Find somebody who's willing to be mean to you. Let them read it. Don't take it personally. Don't say, they just don't understand what I was trying to do. If they don't understand what you were trying to do, there's a problem. Just learn to find people whose sensibility and aesthetic you trust. Then take the criticism. I go to bed sometimes for a day after I get a bad editorial letter. You just have to let it wash over you and accept it. Then you just get back in the chair. Resilience is key. Get back in the chair. Keep going. Resilience and get that first draft on paper. Just get it down in your laptop, in whatever. Just get it written.

Zibby: Love it. Thank you, Amy. Thanks so much for sharing your experience and your advice and your stories and the music and all the rest. Thanks for coming on.

Amy: Thank you for having me. Keep reading and doing what you do, Zibby. You're just amazing. Thank you for having me on.

Zibby: Thank you. Bye, Amy. Have a great day.

Amy: Bye. You too.

Zibby: Bye.

Julie Pennell, LOUISIANA LUCKY

Zibby Owens: Welcome to day three of my second week of my July Book Blast. I guess technically this day eight of my July Book Blast. Today is Beach Reads Wednesday. I love beach reads. I wish I had more time to just sit on the beach and read, as I'm sure we all do. Instead of that, I'm offering up all these amazing beach read books which you should definitely check out this summer and beyond.

Julie Pennell was born and raised in Louisiana. After graduating from college, she headed to New York to work at Seventeen magazine. She currently lives in Philadelphia with her husband and young son and is a regular contributor to today.com. Her writing has appeared in The Knot, InStyle, and Refinery29. She is the author of The Young Wives Club and most recently, Louisiana Lucky.

Welcome, Julie. Thanks for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Julie Pennell: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you. Big fan.

Zibby: Yay, that's so nice. I feel like I toil in my little room here by myself all day, so it's nice to hear. [laughs] Louisiana Lucky, tell us about this novel. What's it about?

Julie: Louisiana Lucky is about three sisters in small-town Louisiana who play -- they have a monthly girls' night. They play the lottery. They drink cheap wine and fantasize about how different their lives would be if they won the jackpot. Spoiler alert, they do. They win $204 million that they get to split between them. It follows the story of how they spend their money. Lexi is the youngest. She's just recently engaged, so she decides to plan a Hollywood-style wedding. Callie is a local newspaper reporter. The money gives her the confidence to go after her career dreams and also love. Then Hanna is our oldest. She's a mom of two young kids. She wants to give them everything that she possibly can to make their lives better. It follows that. Obviously, the story is fantasy. It's got your fun shopping sprees and makeovers. It's also got some realistic things of disaster and heartbreak. In between those things, there's also love and family and hopefully feel-good feelings. I've read this book a million times during my editing process. Every time, I come out with a fuzzy feeling at the end. I really hope that readers feel that as well. Especially in this time, I feel like we all need a feel-good story.

Zibby: It's like you knit yourself your own sweater or something. [laughs] You wrote your own book to make you feel better. Then it makes you feel better. It's perfect.

Julie: This is why we write. You want to write the book that you want to read. This is a book that I thought would be really fun to read.

Zibby: There you go. It's perfect. Then now you make it fun for the rest of us to read. I love how you jump around and do alternating viewpoints of the different sisters and how you just keep the story moving along and interweave everything. It's very cool. How did you come up with this idea?

Julie: Who hasn’t fantasized about winning millions of dollars and just changing your life? I just thought that would be a really fun backdrop for the story, just to have fun with it. Also, it could be a self-discovery story for the women in the story, but also for the readers. I hope that they come away with some kind of feeling about money. Is it tied to happiness, or do we already have everything that we possibly need? Especially right now with the pandemic and being sheltered in place and not spending money, I feel like we're all kind of looking at that within our own selves. I'm hoping that is also something that readers take away from it.

Zibby: What was your conclusion after going through the exercise of seeing what happens and the impact of the lottery win on all these women? I know I've read studies that it turns out that money doesn't actually buy you happiness. The lottery winners, sometimes they get depressed because their expectations are so high or they change their lives so rapidly that they lose touch with things that had given meaning to their lives before. Just curious if at this point, winning the lottery, good thing? Bad thing? What do you think?

Julie: What I didn't want to do -- I know I've heard horror stories of lottery winners. Their lives are ruined forever. I just felt like that was super depressing. I think that having money would be fun because you could do things with it. You could give it to charity, things like that. I didn't want these girls to have the worst lives ever after they won. You'll see in the end that they do realize that it's not about the money itself. It's about the people that are with them and what they can give to others and what others can give to them. I think that that's what makes you rich. It's like It's a Wonderful Life. You're the richest man because you have friends and because you have family and things like that. Also, money would be fun too. [laughs] [Indiscernible] and stuff, but I don't think that you need billions of dollars. I would hope that if someone had billions of dollars they would give it away to people who need it.

Zibby: How did you end up writing a book at all? Tell me about your whole writing journey. When did you realize you liked to write? I'm assuming you like to write, but that is a big assumption. Maybe you don't like to write.

Julie: I hate writing. [laughs]

Zibby: How did you become a writer?

Julie: I've actually been writing my entire life. I was writing little stories when I was a little girl. My mom still has all of them. Then when I was fourteen, I just randomly walked up to the local newspaper and asked them if there were any writing opportunities for teenagers. They randomly let me come in and intern for them. Then I wrote a weekly teen column for them for seven years, way past when I was not a teen anymore. It was really fun. I've always wanted to write for magazines, and stories. I worked at Seventeen magazine. Then I've always wanted to write a novel. I've tried so many times. I think a lot of authors have done this where you get in, you get really excited. I wrote twenty thousand words for a couple books. Then I just had no idea where I was going. Then I finally came up with my debut novel idea, The Young Wives Club, and plotted it out. I think that that made all the difference in the world. Then it sold. They're letting me do another one. I feel so lucky. I feel Louisiana Lucky right now.

Zibby: Aw. Are you from Louisiana? How did you place it there? You are?

Julie: Yep, I was born and raised there. I lived there through college. I went to Louisiana Tech for college. Then I ended up moving to New York to work in magazines after. There's always a special place in my heart for the state. I just feel that it's so magical and so special. I kind of just wanted to be transported back there when I was writing this book. I hope that it transports readers to this magical place with the wonderful culture and the smells and sights and sounds of one of my favorite places in the world.

Zibby: What are you going to write next? Are you already at work on your next novel? I'm sure you are.

Julie: I'm mulling over some ideas. I haven't put pen to paper yet. I just had a baby.

Zibby: Congratulations.

Julie: I'm just taking a little pause. I find that this is the time when I need to be thinking about it. I don't know, but we'll do it. I'll do it.

Zibby: You're going to have a whole new world of material now. Just wait. How old is your baby?

Julie: He's two months old. Then I have a two-and-a-half-year-old as well. I actually wrote Louisiana Lucky his first year. It's funny. I feel like I have a baby every single year I have a new book. [laughs] I was a stay-at-home mom for the first year and just wrote it during his naps and after he went to bed at night. I was really thankful that he was a good sleeper for that. I'm hoping this new one is going to be a good sleeper too. Then I'll be able to get another book out.

Zibby: That could be Louisiana Really, Really, Lucky. [laughs] Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

Julie: Going back on the plotting, I definitely think that that's something that everyone should try if they're struggling like I was struggling. I feel like knowing where you're supposed to go in the plot is definitely going to help you get to the end. Of course, things change because these characters are crazy. They're actually real people. They have minds of their own. Things might change, but at least you have an end goal. Then my other piece of advice always is just to find time to write. It's so cliché, but like they always say, you can't edit a blank page. It's so true. You just have to -- like doing it during your kid's naps. On Twitter, there's a five AM writers' club where people get up at five AM and do it before their full-time jobs. Even if it's a page a day, sometimes it takes a while to write a book, but at least you've done it. If I hadn’t done it during the naps, then I wouldn't be talking about it right now with you. You've just got to do it. Everybody has a story. I think that everybody should try.

Zibby: I'm glad your first child napped so that you could write this book and we could chat. It all worked out. Thank you so much for coming on my podcast. Congratulations on this book. Good luck with your baby. It was great chatting with you.

Julie: Thank you so much. It was great chatting with you as well.

Zibby: My pleasure. Bye.

Julie: Bye.

Zibby: I hope you've enjoyed this beach read on Beach Reads Wednesday, part of my July Book Blast.

Iva-Marie Palmer, GIMME EVERYTHING YOU GOT

Zibby Owens: Iva-Marie Palmer is the author of the middle-grade series Gabby Garcia's Ultimate Playbook and the young adult novels The End of the World As We Know It; Romeo, Juliet & Jim; The Summer; and Gimmie Everything You Got. She currently lives in Burbank, California, with her husband and two sons.

Welcome, Iva. Thank you so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Iva-Marie Palmer: Thanks for having me.

Zibby: I'm sorry we didn't meet in person. I know we were supposed to be at the same event at some point. Because of the pandemic we have yet to meet face to face, so eventually.

Iva: I know. I think it was at Sarah Mlynowski's house. I was so excited to go, and as we know...

Zibby: Sarah Mlynowski is the one who suggested that I start a podcast. Without her, I would not even have this podcast.

Iva: How amazing is she? I have been reading her since she did her Red Dress Ink books, which I adored. When I got invited to an event at her home, it was like, [distorted audio].

Zibby: My kids had read Upside Down Magic not even knowing who she was. It's so cool. Anyway, your book, now that we've talked about other middle grade books, tell me about Gimmie Everything You Got.

Iva: Gimmie Everything You Got, it's my first young adult in a while. I had a middle-grade series. It's set in 1979 in a high school just outside Chicago in a Chicago suburb similar to where I grew up. It's post-Title IX and during the women's, the ERA and everything. Although, the ERA doesn't get mentioned in the book. It centers on a girl named Susan Klintock who is just full of lust and lusty daydreams and normal teen girl sexual fantasies, but she has no outlet for them until Bobby McMann comes to her school. He's going to be the coach of the first ever girls' soccer team. She focuses all of that energy on him because she's never seen a boy in real life that was worth her focus or her lusty thoughts. She decides to try out for the soccer team purely based on this crush, which it seems like everyone else who tries out for the soccer team is similarly inclined to do. She finds out she's good at it and she likes it. There's no horrific moment where he's into it or even really realizes what she's doing. I will do that spoiler. She tries to get his attention in a lot of ways. Ultimately, the story is about her finding out that even though she did something for the wrong reasons, the result is really empowering and amazing for her between the friendships and just figuring out that she's good at something. A lot of times in YA -- I wanted to write a character who didn't have a plan in place. There's often characters who are very achievement focused. In the late seventies, she's not sure what she's going to do after she graduates and stuff like that or even who she is or what she really wants. That's really what this is about, just figuring out what you really want.

Zibby: Awesome. I'm sorry at the beginning I said middle grade. This is one area I'm really bad at. I am constantly miscategorizing YA and middle grade.

Iva: I get it.

Zibby: The delineation seems sort of ambiguous for me sometimes. I don't know at what age you can go in. I have two kids who are going to be seventh graders. Are they supposed to be reading YA? Are they still middle grade? I don't know. What do you think about the category?

Iva: It's very weird. There's middle grade where it's firmly, this is definitely for eight to nine, ten, eleven-year-olds. Then as you get to age twelve or so, you have young YA. Those are harder to find in general. If you go to the young adult section, everything is about older characters. In my book, she's seventeen. My book is definitely, I think it's categorized as fourteen and up because of some of the content. I think it is hard. There's almost like a middle ground between tween and teen. It's like you're sort of a teenager, so you don't want to be reading maybe as much the stuff for littler kids. Even though it's great, you're kind of ready for something bigger, but you're not quite at the YA where it's dealing with kids who are about to graduate high school or are really exploring some near-adult topics. Part of why I thought the book might be good for moms and your audience is because it is on the upper end of the age group. I did hear from a number of my peers who were like, "God, this is a book I needed when I was in my teens." Hopefully, it will get to those teens too.

Zibby: When I was eleven, twelve, all I wanted to read about was teenagers and people graduating from college and adults. I didn't want to necessarily read about people my age.

Iva: Totally. I think that's one of the keys too. Big readers, they're always probably reading a little older than them. My son is nine. Since he was about seven, he's been reading about kids in middle school. I imagine when he's in middle school, he's not going to be as into still reading about kids in middle school. I think it all depends on where you are on the reading spectrum and when you started and how much you read and maybe what your interests are. I was the same way. I read everything. By the time I was entering high school or in junior high, I was scouring the library for people who were on their way to college because I just wanted to skip over everything to that.

Zibby: Right? Me too. I was the same way. I feel like that's why now I'm starting to read all these books about aging. [laughs] Now that the pandemic has made me confront how much gray is in my hair, I feel like, okay, I am certainly aging in some ways. Now I'm finding myself reading about eighty-year-olds or something like that. I'm always looking for a guide for what's coming next.

Iva: I know. Totally. I can't remember the last book I read, but it was similar to that where I was like, that sounds nice. Look at all this wisdom in the peaceful side. Not peaceful, the books still have conflict and stuff, but the characters seem more self-possessed in the way they approach them. That's what I guess I look forward to about aging. Yeah, the gray, pandemic gray [distorted audio].

Zibby: [laughs] That can be a new crayon color or something, pandemic gray. So how did you get into this? How did you start writing for whoever-age people? I won't even call it anything.

Iva: I did not write books or fiction so much. In college, I was very practical. I was like, I will get a journalism degree because you can get a job in journalism and have a career, which as we know is not the stable-est place to reside. I took some short story writing classes and stuff in college, but nothing that was like, oh, this is going to be my career, because I always talked myself out of it. I always tell this story at school visits. I loved books so much. Someone like Judy Blume, I assumed she had to be anointed somehow, and magical. Not everyone can do that. I'm from this Chicago suburb. People from here don't write books. It was bizarre how it was not even a consideration. Then as I was reporting, I actually did a story on a screenwriting class that was taking place. Then I really thought the class sounded cool. I took the class. I wrote a screenplay. I entered some contests and won a few prizes. Then I moved out to LA thinking -- for a variety of reasons, not off one prize. There were a variety of reasons.

As I was working on scripts and stuff, I realized I always really loved books. I loved movies, but why was I writing movies, or trying to? I didn't have to be out here, in other words. Why was I trying to write movies if books were my home, where I felt the most at home? Then I did a National Novel Writing Month. I think it was when I was working -- I was a web editor at Disney. A friend had worked with a book packing company. She knew I wrote. She hooked me up with people there. I did some ghostwriting of young adult fiction. The books I had written for Novel Writing Month were totally chick-lit. They're still not published and in a drawer and very weird. Maybe someday I'll take them out, but I think they were just there to get me started and probably really embarrassing if I read them now. I did the ghostwriting. Then I had a YA book come out in 2012 called The End of the World As We Know It. That's where we are right now. [laughter] I wrote another teen romance. Then I did jump over to middle grade. I met an editor when I was pitching a different book. That one didn't work out at the time. It's a YA that was comedic. That was when everything was Twilight and whatever. She liked my writing. She asked me if I would ever be interested in creating middle grade, so I did middle grade.

Then I found I really wanted to get back into YA and started hashing this idea out just kind of based on -- I was thinking about that scene in Fast Times at Ridgemont High where Phoebe Cates comes out of the pool and Judge Reinhold is watching her, and that gaze, that sexual moment that he has, mine's not quite as explicit, but trying to picture the female version of that, so this idea of this coach walking through the cafeteria for the first time and Susan, who is underwhelmed by all of the boys she goes to school with, seeing this guy and just literally dropping her Yoo-hoo. [laughs] It was just so much fun to me. It started from there. YA is where I've been. I'm tinkering with adult stuff now too, but I'm really excited about this book. So far, everyone who's read it has really responded. A few people who are older are like, "I didn't know you could do that in YA." We talk about big things. It's just definitely for, it's for teenagers. I did recently hear from a teenager who wrote and said she loved it. I was so glad because I think the worry when you write something set in 1979 is, do any kids in 2020 want to read about the seventies? It was really gratifying. That was a long and crazy answer.

Zibby: No, that's fine. That was great. Why did you set it in 1979?

Iva: Because of Title IX.

Zibby: Oh, of course. Duh. Sorry, stupid question. Of course.

Iva: No, not at all. Also, they call it historical fiction now, but I think what I like about going into the past is that you're free a little bit from some of the stuff like phones and social media and stuff. It was nice to think kind of purely about someone who isn't dealing -- the story doesn't have to be as entwined with all of those things, which can sometimes make it harder for me to tell a story anyway. I'm a terrible texter. I'm like, what if these people don't text? That's not to say that I'll only write historical. I can definitely do text in books, and I have. It was really refreshing to do that time period and to literally think, what did this person do when she went home from school? There's twelve TV channels and listens to records and just waits for her mom to get home or whatever. There were fewer options for girls. I wanted to write something with that bit of empowerment message going on.

Zibby: Did you play sports growing up? Were you on the soccer team?

Iva: I was not. My school did not have a soccer team. That was one of the interesting things about telling this story set in a neighborhood like mine because soccer was sort of -- we were football. Even the boys on the soccer team, and I hope if they're listening they don't feel bad, but soccer was sort of like, you play soccer? It's European. It was a more working-class suburb. We had a soccer team and they were really good, but for boys. We did not have one for girls. Some of the schools in other areas did. I didn't play soccer. I did swim. I say I'm good at sports without equipment. Soccer, though, I chose because I wanted a team. I think for me, writing sports -- what's good about me having not played soccer is the sports scenes don't feel overwhelming to someone who's not a sports person. I try to not make it feel like a play-by-play where the language is like, I don't understand. For me, if I read a football book that's really, not that I'd ever probably read one, but that's really detailed with yard lines and stuff, I'd be like, I don't know what they're talking about. It's authentic. I definitely watched a lot of the Women's World Cup and learned a lot more about soccer, but I was leveraging my experiences with competition and being on a team. That's what I layered into the story here, and just that sense of what being competitive does for you as a person, or getting that chance to be competitive which I thought was a big deal for a girl who really hadn’t had a lot of goals to suddenly figure out that she felt good doing this, that she wanted something, that she actually wanted to win or be great, was fun. That was kind of me too because I was not coordinated as a younger kid. When I got to high school and suddenly I'm joining sports teams and actually pretty okay, it was great. It was actually kind of a [indiscernible]. What about you? Did you play sports in high school?

Zibby: In high school, I played tennis and lacrosse. I did play in a little soccer league when I was growing up starting when I was six just in the summers. We used to have these games after dinner because we'd spend the summers out on Long Island. The head of the shoe store coached my team. It was very suburban-esque. I really liked lacrosse. I was super into that.

Iva: It's a similar thing with the team. I know different moves and playing, but being on a team and whatever, I think it's just great. Even that the games get a little rougher, you learn so much about yourself and what you can do when you play a sport. I think it's just great for everybody. I'm not telling readers that they must go out and play a sport.

Zibby: It's great. It's great to be part of a team. It's great to be part of a team in any way. Sports are one of the only ways to really be on a team at that age. Now you can do it through work or you can do it through some sort of community. I think sports teams are great. It's really neat to share goals with people and share victories and losses and all that bonding stuff. Going back to the crush aspect of this book -- that's so funny that the Phoebe Cates, Judge Reinhold, they're blast from the past actors and actresses. What's the last time you had that feeling? Is there a time in your life that you hearken back to when you think about having such a mad crush like that?

Iva: Teacher-wise, I did not have one on a teacher. I'm sorry to disappoint. I didn't have one like that where there was a teacher in school that I desperately wanted to impress. That's not some moral high ground. Our teachers, we didn't really have anyone exceedingly cute. There was one guy I remember everyone thought was super cute. He was nice and cute, but not a teacher crush. I did have, in high school -- this is where Susan's feelings track, is where you're thinking about the person just all the time and kind of irrationally. I had a crush on a guy from a neighboring school. He sort of liked me for a week. That week, I spread out over the course of a year. We both worked at the same mall. Every so often, he'd drop in my store. You would create this whole mythology. Everything he said had so many more meanings. You were definitely going to wind up together even though he would give no indication of that and literally bring his girlfriend into the store. I remember one time my friend asked for a ride to the concert and said, "John is coming too." I thought, oh, we're going to the concert together. It's going to be the moment we get together.

Then I picked them up and he had -- I shouldn't say this because I want to save it for a book someday. He had brought his girlfriend with and she was holding balloons because it was their anniversary. They got into my little hatchback with all these balloons. I'm driving my crush to the concert with his girlfriend of three months. They're celebrating their anniversary. I was still kind of like, well, he likes me better. [laughter] It was this delusional -- you can't believe that you would've picked someone who isn't into it. I think for a while, Susan's cruising on those feelings, like, he's only three years older. I think he's five years older in the book. She's like, maybe not now, but there's definitely -- any time he complements her, it means something. At one point, he tells her, "You have amazing potential." She takes that to mean, he's going to ask me to marry him as soon as school is over.

I've been there. I think everyone gets there. Some people actually end up dating their crushes. That whole obsession where you're weaving stories -- maybe that's part of being a writer. You can weave this story about anyone. Maybe writer crushes are actually worse. If you have any imaginative talent, you could really waste a lot of time just puzzling over every little move they make. I think everyone does it. That was my big one, was that guy. I finally got a boyfriend and got over it. Even for a while after I got a boyfriend and we would be in the same place, I'd be like, he's so jealous. He wasn't paying any attention to me at all. It was like, he's ignoring me because he's jealous I have a boyfriend now.

Zibby: That's so funny.

Iva: I probably sound delusional.

Zibby: No, I love it. It's really funny. It's also so nice to -- everything feels very heavy. Everything's very heavy right now in the world, so to have a minute to laugh about our old crushes --

Iva: -- Do you have one?

Zibby: Oh, gosh. I had so many crushes. My first crush was in seventh grade. I was so obvious about it because I was so shy then. I would just stare at him at dances and things like this. I don't know if someone dared him or one of my friends who was more outgoing begged him to ask me to dance, but he asked me to dance at this one dance. I have, in my diary at the time, I slow danced with this guy Chris, it was the most amazing thing in my entire life. [laughs] After that, maybe a smile or two the rest of my life. I should really look him up at this point. Anyway, you obviously have kids. I can kind of hear them in the background sometimes, which is totally fine.

Iva: I have the door closed.

Zibby: No, I can just hear the happy hum of kids. When you find the time to write? When do you do your writing? Do you do it at home or do you leave?

Iva: I mostly do it at home. I've tried leaving. I have one who is in transitional kindergarten, so he gets home earlier. The other one was in fourth grade this year. Obviously, this year everything went a little haywire. I've been writing, but it's not to the same extent. I used to get up before work and write with my first books. Since I've had kids, I haven't been able to maintain that. I did have a full-time job up until about 2014. I still freelance. My day, I usually try to write when they're at school. Now that they're not at school, I tell myself and I tell other people this too if they say they want to write and they just can't find the time, I sometimes have to do things in fits and starts. I would love a perfectly calm routine where it's like, this is my writing time. I do get that sometimes. Especially if I'm in the heat of a project, I have to do that. When I'm just starting something or whatever and if it's just me with the kids -- it's much better, obviously, if they are at school or in an activity. I'm starting a new project now, so we're going to see how this works.

Fits and starts is kind of how I do it. I'll sit down and I'll work a little bit. If it's a hundred words there, I have to come back to it. The thing that stinks is it's always lingering in your brain. You haven't hit that target that you want. You do chip away at the work. Then you have something on the page even if you have to do a lot of revision. Definitely when I'm deep into either, I have to finish this draft or I have to get this revision done, that is when my dad helps with our kids a little. My husband is home now, so we take turns a little bit, like, I need two solid hours to do with some uninterrupted work. I leverage any time they have to watch a movie or do their screen time stuff. That's when I have to ignore that I want to deal with the mess in the house. I can't look at that stuff. I just have to sit down and force some words out. Certainly, I work at home for the time being. I do think after the pandemic, maybe I'm going to finally be a writer who goes to coffee shops because after being at home for a while, it sounds really desirable to mix it up. I wish I could pledge to a certain routine. My thing is mostly that I just try to look at whatever I'm working on every day for as much time as I can. I try to get a solid, at least, hour in there. I do have a really supportive husband. Before the pandemic, on weekends he would take the kids on a field trip so I could have a solid day or whatever, or he'd deal with all their activities and stuff so I could stay home and work. With this going on, it's sort of different. It's just like, I'll be in the other room with them while you do that.

Zibby: I know. It's so crazy.

Iva: It's a process of whatever I can do. It's all frenzied and always anxious. It's not perfect at all.

Zibby: Such is life.

Iva: It is what it is. It's getting written, so I'm just going with it for now. Maybe when they're older I'll have something more clear cut. That would be great.

Zibby: What is your parting advice to aspiring authors? What advice would you give?

Iva: That was one of the pieces. Don't wait for that perfect moment. I think I will go with that because we are in such an imperfect moment with the pandemic and the economic crisis and the protests, which are great and I support, but we all are kind of like, what is happening? What's going to go on? Where are we headed? What might come down the road next? Even though it can be really hard to write, if you have that idea that you're just dying to get out, I'd say to sit down and just try it. This is what I actually told kids in school presentations. Write down one line a day if you have to until you have something going. Tell yourself, I'm going to do this for fifteen minutes. Then maybe if it's flowing, you'll find out that fifteen minutes turns into a half hour, turns into an hour, or whatever. I think it's just about not waiting for that perfect, I'm going to go to a beach house and have a view of the ocean, and no interruptions, and I'm going to feel perfect before I sit down and set pen to paper. I think starting is so important. I get stuck in middles, so I don't have great advice for the middle. Starting is so important. From there, as you go, you can get more advice or figure things out. I also think outlines are really helpful if you feel like you do get stuck. As someone who gets stuck sometimes or has a bunch of things that I've started and stopped, to pause and say, what is my outline? I know it sort of de-romanticizes the writing life that you're just going to sit down and it's going to flow and be beautiful, but having a map even if you don't follow it perfectly, for me, it's really helpful. I would recommend that too. I'm sorry. I'm a rambler. I hope I didn't ramble too much.

Zibby: No, this was great. It was totally great. Thank you so much for coming on my show and talking about your book and making the time work and all the stuff. Thank you.

Iva: Thank you for making the time work. I am so sorry.

Zibby: No, it was great. It was totally great. Bye.

Iva: Thank you so much.

Zibby: Bye, thanks.