Dr. Daniel Black, DON'T CRY FOR ME

Dr. Daniel Black, DON'T CRY FOR ME

"To become a participant in a democracy, to become a participant in a country so that your citizenship is guaranteed, it's so absolutely, positively critical. Otherwise, you always see yourself as an outsider." Professor Dr. Daniel Black joins Zibby to talk about his latest novel, Don't Cry For Me, which he finished the very same day his father died. Daniel and Zibby discuss why Daniel wanted this novel to feature some under-discussed and challenging conversations about parenthood, and particularly how it pertains to Black men. Daniel also shares how his family's story inspired him to pursue his PhD, why it's important to let children grow up to be who they are, and what the sequel to this novel will look like.

Charmaine Wilkerson, BLACK CAKE

Charmaine Wilkerson, BLACK CAKE

Charmaine Wilkerson joins Zibby to discuss her debut novel, Black Cake, which was already a Read with Jenna book club pick and a New York Times Editors Choice. The two talk about the moment Charmaine knew the story she was going to write, which experiences and feelings from her own life are infused in her writing, and the roundabout way she ultimately became a novelist. Charmaine also shares her extensive and diverse reading list and what she is working on next.

Doree Shafrir & Kate Spencer, THANKS FOR WAITING and A NEW YORK MINUTE

Doree Shafrir & Kate Spencer, THANKS FOR WAITING and A NEW YORK MINUTE

Zibby is joined by the two co-hosts of the Forever35 podcast Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer to talk about their show and respective books. Doree tells Zibby why she wanted to share the lessons she learned as a late-bloomer in her new memoir, Thanks for Waiting, while Kate shares how romance novels saved her after her mom's death which led her to write both her memoir, The Dead Moms Club, and her new novel, In a New York Minute. The three also chat about some of Doree and Kate's favorite podcast guests and what they like most about how their show has evolved.

Victoria V.E. Schwab, GALLANT

Victoria V.E. Schwab, GALLANT

#1 New York Times bestselling author Victoria "V.E." Schwab joins Zibby to discuss her most recent two novels, Gallant and The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue. The two talk about why Victoria writes under the moniker V.E., what her traumatic response to creativity looks like, and which of her projects have been optioned to be adapted. They also connect over the ups and downs that come with being an artist, as well as why Victoria finds the fantasy genre so fascinating (despite being a voracious memoir reader).

Nina Navisky, THE FORTUNE COOKIE WRITER

Nina Navisky, THE FORTUNE COOKIE WRITER

Zibby is joined by novelist Nina Navisky to discuss her latest novel, The Fortune Cookie Writer, which follows a single mother working multiple jobs to make ends meet for her son. Nina shares why both of her books have featured neurologically diverse characters, as well as how she recreated the exact layout of her town in this story. Nina also tells Zibby about the event that inspired her to start writing, how her family's Holocaust story and Jewish heritage factored into this book, and what genre she wants to try her hand at next.

Alafair Burke, FIND ME

Alafair Burke, FIND ME

Zibby is joined by Alafair Burke, New York Times bestselling author of 14 crime novels, including her most recent book, Find Me. The two talk about which real true-crime facts inspired elements of this story, why Alafair's father's suggestions that she become a writer like him led her to pursue a career as a prosecutor instead, and how collaborating on six books with the late author Mary Higgins Clark prompted her to shift from being a pantser to a plotter. Alafair also shares how female friendship factors into this novel as well as her next standalone project.

Greer Hendricks & Sarah Pekkanen, THE GOLDEN COUPLE

Greer Hendricks & Sarah Pekkanen, THE GOLDEN COUPLE

#1 New York Times bestselling duo Greer Hendricks and Sarah Pekkanen return to talk with Zibby about their latest novel, The Golden Couple, which grew out of a title suggestion from their editor. Greer and Sarah share why they love writing about complicated relationships and dynamics, where they pull their inspiration from in their real lives, and what it was like to co-write together during the pandemic. They also reveal why there is no secret formula for a successful book or writing partnership, and offer a very diplomatic answer for whether or not this book will make it onto the big screen.

Katy Regan, HOW TO FIND YOUR WAY HOME

Katy Regan, HOW TO FIND YOUR WAY HOME

Novelist Katy Regan joins Zibby to talk about her latest book, How to Find Your Way Home. The two discuss why Katy wanted to write about homelessness with a bother and sister dynamic, their shared love and mourning for print magazines, and the personal connection that inspired Katy to include a birdwatching element to the story. Katy also shares the wide range of books she's reading now and how she found her way to writing through other artistic mediums.

Emma Straub, THIS TIME TOMORROW

Emma Straub, THIS TIME TOMORROW

New York Times bestselling author and owner of Books Are Magic Emma Straub returns to talk with Zibby about her latest novel, This Time Tomorrow, which was inspired by her relationship with her father while he was hospitalized in 2020. Emma shares why she wanted to tie in her own 1980s nostalgia and if she felt a sense of closure after writing her most personal story to date. The two also discuss the importance of timing, the sensation of pre-grieving a loss, and whether or not Emma will return to the book she put on pause to complete this novel.

Jean Hanff Korelitz, THE LATECOMER

Jean Hanff Korelitz, THE LATECOMER

New York Times bestselling author Jean Hanff Korelitz returns to discuss her latest novel, The Latecomer, which she has been working on for years on and off. Jean tells Zibby about the role Steve Martin played in writing this novel, which episode of the British Antiques Roadshow inspired parts of the story, and what elements of fertility journeys Jean made sure to include. The two also talk about some of Jean's recent accolades, such as being chosen to be The Tonight Show's Summer Read for 2021 and having both The Plot and The Latecomer optioned for television.

Anna Pitoniak, OUR AMERICAN FRIEND

Anna Pitoniak, OUR AMERICAN FRIEND

Author and editor Anna Pitoniak joins Zibby to talk about her latest novel, Our American Friend, which was inspired by a combination of Anna's fascination with Russian culture and a 2016 GQ article about Melania Trump. The two discuss why writing this novel felt different from Anna's previous two, which life experiences have found their way into each of her books, and what she misses most about working in publishing full-time.

Jodi Picoult, CHOICE

Jodi Picoult, CHOICE

#1 New York Times bestseller Jodi Picoult returns to talk with Zibby about her new Audible Original, Choice, as well as the long-awaited debut of her Broadway musical, Between the Lines. Jodi shares how she was inspired by her anger at the current political moment to create the world in Choice in which cisgender men are able to get pregnant, as well as why she is donating all of her earnings to the National Network of Abortion Funds. Jodi and Zibby also discuss how Between the Lines grew out of one of the novels she wrote with her daughter, some of the pandemic-related setbacks the production faced, and the effect she wants it to have on audiences. Email info@zibbyowens.com for the chance to win a ticket to a private cocktail party with Jodi and a preview of the show in New York City on June 16th!

Eliza Jane Brazier, GOOD RICH PEOPLE

Eliza Jane Brazier, GOOD RICH PEOPLE

Eliza Jane Brazier joins Zibby to discuss her latest novel, Good Rich People, which pulls fascinating bits and pieces from her real life. The two talk about Eliza's experience living below the poverty line, how her sister-in-law's success as a writer inspired her to try her hand at it, and the impact her husband's death had on her writing. Eliza also shares how writing has become more fun for her over the years and what she is working on next.

Kai Harris, WHAT THE FIREFLIES KNEW

Kai Harris, WHAT THE FIREFLIES KNEW

Zibby is joined by Kai Harris to discuss her debut novel, What the Fireflies Knew, which is the first fiction title out from former podcast guest Phoebe Robinson's new imprint. Kai shares how this book grew from a short story she had started while working on her master's, which parts of it were inspired by her own life, and the two pieces of advice that strengthened this project. Zibby also asks Kai about how she accurately captured the sisterhood dynamic and the importance of representation in stories.

Jennifer Haigh, MERCY STREET

Jennifer Haigh, MERCY STREET

Zibby is joined by New York Times bestselling author Jennifer Haigh to talk about her seventh novel, Mercy Street, which was inspired by her experience volunteering at a women's clinic. The two discuss the impact Jennifer's upbringing had on her opinions on reproductive rights and class, as well as why it is so important—especially right now—to talk frankly about abortions. Jennifer also shares how she got her start as an author, why she needs to fully disconnect from the outside world to write, and the effects teaching at UMass Boston has had on her own writing.

Emily Wibberley & Austin Siegemund-Broka, THE ROUGHEST DRAFT

Emily Wibberley & Austin Siegemund-Broka, THE ROUGHEST DRAFT

Zibby is joined by high school sweethearts and writing duo Emily Wibberley and Austin Siegemund-Broka to talk about their first adult romance novel, The Roughest Draft. The two tell Zibby about how they got their start writing YA books together, what real life moments in their relationship found their way into this story, and which authors are their biggest inspirations.

Hannah Lillith Assadi, THE STARS ARE NOT YET BELLS

Zibby is joined by National Book Foundation 5 under 35 honoree Hannah Lillith Assadi to talk about her latest novel, The Stars Are Not Yet Bells, which is narrated by a woman with dementia. The two discuss which family stories inspired Hannah, how the book's delayed timeline has impacted her connection to it, and what she's considering working on next.


Transcript:

Zibby Owens: Welcome, Hannah. Thanks so much for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books" to discuss The Stars Are Not Yet Bells.

Hannah Lillith Assadi: Thank you so much for having me.

Zibby: You are a beautiful, lyrical, poetic writer. I really appreciate your writing style and am very excited to discuss your book.

Hannah: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Zibby: Can you tell listeners what your book is about?

Hannah: It's about a woman who has dementia. As she's succumbing to her illness, she begins to live more and more in her past and beside a lover who has been long dead for many decades. The moment of their relationship resurfaces and reemerges. Simultaneously, she begins to see these strange, metaphysical, blue lights that occupy the island where she had lived with her husband for many years. I'm not very good at the elevator pitch, but that's the general summary.

Zibby: You know what? You did wonderfully. I have a passage that I had -- even from the beginning, I just want to -- why don't I just read the first part, the first page, even? which I have online. It says, "It is not yet the end. Moss descends from the oaks thick as curtains veiling the night's secrets from the living. A wild mare and her foal are out to feed before the dawn. Seagulls bark their hunger at the sky. And Lyra, our island, remains above the sea. The ocean has not engulfed all this, even though I have woken from that dream I've had again and again over the decades. In last night's rendering, after the island has burned and sunken into the waters and all the stars had fallen into the Atlantic, I could still swim. And beneath the surface, wandering among the blue constellations like a mermaid, at last, I found Gabriel." It was so good. Beautiful.

Hannah: Thanks. I worked on that one. [laughs]

Zibby: I bet. Take me back. Tell me about how you became a writer, your style, your training, this way of telling this particular story, all of that.

Hannah: I was always writing little fictions ever since I was a child. Primarily, when I would get into trouble or something, I would write a little story. My father used to tell me I did this. I wasn't seriously inspired until high school. An English teacher assigned a creative writing response assignment to The Sound and the Fury where we had to write a character from Caddy Compson's perspective. That was the first time that I ever wrote fiction. I'm sure it was awful, but that was my first piece of fiction. Then I wrote, but more, I would say, "journal wrote" until I was in college. Then I studied creative writing as an undergrad in addition to Middle Eastern literature. When I was graduated, I was writing stories. I knew I wanted to be a writer. I still didn't really know how to formalize that desire yet. I did my MFA. It definitely helped me. I think there was some hinderances to it only because of its cost, but it certainly did help formalize my education and also just push me toward the right people to help me actually become a professional. That was the progression there.

After my MFA, I published my first book, Sonora. I had been working on a few different projects. I have this tendency to start writing, it'll get to a certain point, and then I realize it's just not moving anymore. That was happening with a lot of things while I was waiting for my first book to come out. In the month afterward, my mom and I had gone to visit my great-aunt who has since passed. I had recently seen this picture of my grandmother with this man whom none of us knew who he was. Although, my great-aunt, I think, did know who he was. It was this interesting mystery that I wanted to write about, about the person who got away, as it were. Also, I've always been interested in memory and in time and certainly, mortality. I think most writers are interested in the latter. I thought Alzheimer's would be such an interesting condition to try to inhabit. That was the genesis of this particular book. Then it evolved in strange ways from there and took on a life of its own. My parents were not in the jewel industry and didn't live on a strange island off the coast of Georgia. That was all how a book takes on its own life.

Zibby: Have you always had -- I know you said most authors are focused on morality, which I share with you. The movie with Julianne Moore, Ask Alice -- is that what it was called?

Hannah: Still Alice. No, I haven't seen it.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, you have to watch it.

Hannah: I should probably watch it. You know, I avoided things that felt like they were in similar territory because I was afraid that I would try to emulate too much. Tell me, what were you going to say?

Zibby: It's also sort of an ode to language and the power of our command over language, which is one of the things that Alzheimer's affects. It's your ability to even communicate in the same way. I am haunted by that movie. I think about it more than any other movie, particularly when I am tired and I can't even find the right words. I wonder. Then novels like yours where you really go into that -- memory and language and all of our mental facilities, they're just beyond our grasp. It's so easy for it to all just go away.

Hannah: I know. Obviously, this book, you have to suspend disbelief a little bit because her language stays pretty -- she has command of language since she's a narrator until the end. One of the things I always found really upsetting reading my grandmother's letters to my grandfather is that she was very articulate and very elegant and a sophisticated writer, although not formally trained, obviously, but toward the end -- she had Alzheimer's as well. She started repeating herself all the time and misspelling words and forgetting how to spell and just literally losing language. You can witness it on the page in a way that -- I wasn't there to witness her. It is so sad that it's so easily lost.

Zibby: My grandmothers both, at the very end, you would sit with them, and they would say -- it's like a record or something on replay. I feel like you're younger than me. Maybe you don't even know what I'm talking about, but where it just keeps replaying. The track just loops. You're like, wait, you just said that. Wait, you just said that. What's going on? You're like, am I losing my mind?

Hannah: It's so interesting what they repeat too, like, bye. We don't know enough, certainly. Maybe one day, we will know more about the brain. It's fascinating and sad at the same time.

Zibby: Did you do a lot on the research side?

Hannah: I think I did more research than I give myself credit for, but it's been so long. You may know from talking to as many authors as you do and being an author yourself, how long the publishing industry can take. Sometimes it feels faint to me, but I did do some research. I wouldn't say it was heavy because I really wanted this to be her own story. It's lyrically driven, as you said. I did some research into how the condition manifests itself just to hopefully get some of the moments right. There are moments when it's sunset, so those liminal hours, where she is worse. That manifests in the book, which I think is called sunsetting. I did do some research. I did a lot of research into the treatment of mental illness in the fifties and sixties since she undergoes electric shock treatment, and also the advent of pharmaceutical drugs to treat depression. There was research. I don't think I read too many books on the matter. I hate to admit this, but a lot of googling. I did read about Cumberland Island and the Carnegies there as well because that sort of inspired the setting of the book.

Zibby: You should read this new book by Lee Kravetz called The Confessions of Sylvia P. -- I think that's what it's called -- about Sylvia Plath. It has a whole section of her electric shock treatments.

Hannah: Oh, yeah, I would love to. I would love to. I'll pick it up. Thank you.

Zibby: That was really good. You said it took a long time. When did you start writing this? What was the whole trajectory? Did you use the same publisher as your previous book? Did you go out with it all over again? Tell me about that.

Hannah: It was a different publisher. My first book was published by an independent house. This one was published by Riverhead. They did a beautiful job, obviously. I think a lot of people were delayed. I sold it in the fall of 2018. It came out in January. You can do the math there. That's a few years. So much was delayed. First, there was the elections before COVID hit. I think a lot of publishers didn't want to come out in that season because they knew it would be dense with books that were more politically relevant, which makes sense. Then COVID delayed so much. Seasons got backed up more and more. It feels like I've lived with this for a long time even though the writing of it has been done for a while. There is a way in which you don't fully release it or relinquish it or something until it's out in the world. It's just the nature of the beast. It's been an interesting few months to finally begin the process, really, of letting it go. I'm just like, okay, now it has a life of its own. There's nothing I can do about it.

Zibby: It's like kids going off to college or something.

Hannah: Sure, yeah. I only have a toddler, so I'm not there yet. Hopefully, I'll be somewhat prepared, but probably not.

Zibby: I was going to say, what are you working on now? Then with the toddler, you never know. Are you working on anything now?

Hannah: No, I am. It's funny. It's interesting. I was working on something for quite a while while I was waiting for this to be published. Similar to my last experience, I've put it aside for the time being. I'm not sure if I need some space from it to see if it will begin moving, in a way. There's something very mystical about the experience to me. I feel like if it's not taking on a life of its own, maybe it doesn't want a life. I started something new that's actually just really material that maybe I haven't been wanting to deal with or ready to deal with for a really long time. Now I feel maybe sort of ready. It's intimately connected with my life here in New York, which I always feel like is maybe ending, but I'm not sure. I'm working on that. I can't talk about it more than that, but it's new for now. That would be a third novel. I'm also doing some research into maybe trying to write a screenplay and doing research on a historical figure that I'm very interested in. That's something new creatively. Maybe you can tell I'm a pretty visual writer. I feel like I've never really applied that to anything else but prose, so it might be interesting to try. I don't know yet. We'll see. I'm in the cauldron still. I have a toddler running around screaming a lot of times. I guess you know times four, right?

Zibby: Well, I don't have toddlers anymore.

Hannah: But you have four children?

Zibby: I have four children, but they're older now. Not so old. Seven, eight, and fourteen. The toddler days, it's funny because now I talk to people like you and I'm like, how could she possibly get anything done? At the time, I still wanted to get everything done. I still was getting stuff done, but it was just harder. I think it's not until they get a little older that you're like, wow, that was almost impossible. Why did I try so hard? The time was going to pass. I know that sounds ridiculous. All to say, I have so much respect for people working with small children at home, especially now, and especially in a creative thing where you have to access that part of your brain to get into a certain space to write and produce and all of that. Then there's constant distraction.

Hannah: Trying to cherish it while, at the same time, getting things done, I think that's the real psychological or extensional part. I know this won't last forever. It's adorable. Also, who am I?

Zibby: Honestly, modern-day life is just not particularly well-set up for parenthood at all, really. You have to stop everything. You have to be patient. You have to allow for tantrums. You can't be in control of your time. Yet everything else is so iCal blocked off. It's like a joke. Kids just make a joke of all the scheduling and all the other stuff you might be trying to do.

Hannah: That's a good way of putting it. They make a joke of it. That's for sure.

Zibby: I like how you put that you're in the cauldron. That's a pretty dark place, but maybe you're making something really delicious in the cauldron, like some great tomato soup or something.

Hannah: Sadly, I think it has to go dark for me to even do it. We'll see. Hopefully, one day, we'll be able to talk about that one. I'm just being a little more forgiving of myself, as you said, because these are the toddler years. I hope I'll have more time one day.

Zibby: Do you have a writing partner? Do you ever show your work to anybody or read it out loud?

Hannah: At a certain point, I show it, usually, to my mom. I have a few trusted friends, a few readers who are always -- or at least in the past, who have read early drafts of my book. Pretty soon thereafter, if I feel like I've been with it long enough and revised it, I send it to my agent. There are a few people who are both writers also that I trust with early work. I don't have a writing group, which may be a good idea to hold me a little more accountable, but I just don't see how I can be accountable to anybody else right now.

Zibby: You have a boss baby at work.

Hannah: Exactly. [laughter]

Zibby: What advice would you have for aspiring authors?

Hannah: I think the only thing that I can say -- there's so many paths to publishing. It really looks different for everybody. You can't give up if this is what you want to do. It's not an easy life. There's so much rejection and so much struggle. I think that’s the rule, that you just don't give up on yourself and on your work. That's it. The rest of it, you'll figure out if you want to.

Zibby: Love it. Amazing. Thank you for this beautiful book and the conversation and allowing me the opportunity to feel grateful for the memory I still have while I still have it and holding onto that. Trying to shove it in there so it's not where it evaporates. [laughs] We're all so lucky for the time we have when we're able to be at our most productive before other forces are at work. It's a good reminder, and of course, the power of love.

Hannah: Yeah, there's always that. Thank you so much for having me. Hope to meet you one day in person.

Zibby: You too. Where are you, by the way? Where are you based?

Hannah: I'm in Brooklyn. It seems to be a debatable -- we're not quite sure what's next, but we're in Brooklyn at the moment. Are you in the city?

Zibby: I'm like, she's either in New York or Santa Fe, because you have the archways in the back.

Hannah: I know. It's funny because I am from Arizona. This apartment that we're actually subletting -- we lived here for many years and went to Arizona and came back. We sublet for the semester because I'm teaching at Columbia. It does have a very Southwestern feel. It's totally random, but it is sort of an interesting reminder of where I come from.

Zibby: Where in Arizona did you grow up?

Hannah: In the Phoenix area. We'll see. It's a very complicated relationship I have because when I'm out West, I miss the city. When I'm here, I miss it out there. Maybe one day, I'll figure out how to have both. At the moment, certainly, this past winter has made me miss Arizona, for sure.

Zibby: My mom and stepdad basically retired out there. They're outside Scottsdale. They come here for the summers.

Hannah: That's the ideal life. I grew up in Scottsdale. Where are they?

Zibby: They are in a tiny town called Carefree.

Hannah: Oh, yeah, I love Carefree. I love it. Cave Creek and Carefree, they retained that Old West feel but still have the nice parts of Scottsdale. That's nice. Maybe out there or here, I'll see you one day.

Zibby: Perfect.

Hannah: Thank you so much.

Zibby: Thanks a lot. Buh-bye.

THE STARS ARE NOT YET BELLS by Hannah Lillith Assadi

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